The 6,000,000 number, a fable?

[Stubble]

Another thread (linked via quote post) is being derailed by the 6,000,000 question. This question goes beyond 'did six million really die' and touches on the 'holy' nature this number has.

Basically there is a contention that in the Torah it was 'prophesied' that the jews would only achieve statehood again in the Levant after a holocaust of 6,000,000 jews.

This isn't some post hoc nutty conspiracy claim, it seems to be borne out in newspapers going back 50 years before ww2 and through ww2. The 6,000,000 number pops up over and over again, lending credibility to the idea of the number (now said to be symbolic in nature by some) being not only a predetermined conclusion, but one with a root in rabbinic gematria.

Critics argue that other numbers were bandied about (though it was the 6,000,000 that stuck) and that it is a kooky conspiracy theory that the number was predetermined, what's less that it was 'prophesied'.

With this background in mind, I will now link to a post from Bombsaway in the other thread;

This thread jack really should stop bombs, and we should really move this to a 6,000,000 thread.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, preferably in a new thread, but, didn't you use Hilberg saying 6,000,000 in an argument the other day? I mean, just a few weeks ago even.

Now it is 'Hilberg used a lower number'.

So far as how many jews died in the shoah, I'm not done counting, hell, I still haven't stopped finding Hungarian jews.

Nope, I never would have said that, and if I did, it was a mistake, because I know Hilberg used a lower number.

This "diversion" is relevant to the OP's challenged but sure, respond in another thread.

*1 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; “You shall return minus six million” is - JEWISH PROPHECY - that has allegedly been fulfilled via the “jewish holocaust of WWII” - ??

*2 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The persecution and extermination of 6 million jews was repeatedly mentioned in the media for years - PRIOR TO WORLD WAR II - ??

These are problematic questions and I'm telling you guys why.

To address my query concerning Hilberg and someone saying he supported the 6,000,000 claim, I am currently drawing a blank on the post in question. I freely admit, it may have been Confusedjew or SanityCheck that was talking about an upward revision by Hilberg after the Soviet collapse. If it was not Bombsaway, then I apologize. In my defense, I posed this as a question.

[bombsaway]

This isn't some post hoc nutty conspiracy claim, it seems to be borne out in newspapers going back 50 years before ww2 and through ww2. The 6,000,000 number pops up over and over again, lending credibility to the idea of the number (now said to be symbolic in nature by some) being not only a predetermined conclusion,

Yes, Stubble, but what about the 5,000,000 number popping up even more? https://rodoh.info/thread/686/don-under ... -6?page=32

You see one number popping up a lot, and because your pattern recognition is out of whack, you jump to the conclusion that causally it must be because of "holiness". But the other number appearing so frequently evinces some other causal factor, or perhaps "holiness" again?

[Stubble]

Bombsaway, were you taught about or did you ever learn about the 5,000,000 jews murdered by the nazis in the holocaust?

Me either.

I was instructed that the nazis murdered 6,000,000 jews in homicidal gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. They even showed me pictures of the nordhausen aftermath and motion pictures of Bergen Belsen as proof.

6,000,000 stuck.

I'm not a rabbi, so, I don't know what significance the 5,000,000 number holds where gematria and the Torah and talmud are concerned. Neither number should be seriously entertained as an accurate reporting of the kerfuffle when there was absolutely no way to know what was going on. I find your claim that it was more prominently touted dubious, but it's still irrelevant given the 6,000,000 figure was adopted.

What I am personally left with regarding the butchers bill for the jews during ww2 is having to do my own thorough accounting, which is a project that may exceed the grains of sand in the hourglass that is my life. I certainly won't be treating the 6,000,000 figure seriously given its sorted history.

[bombsaway]

Bombsaway, were you taught about or did you ever learn about the 5,000,000 jews murdered by the nazis in the holocaust?

Me either.

I was instructed that the nazis murdered 6,000,000 jews in homicidal gas chambers disguised as shower rooms. They even showed me pictures of the nordhausen aftermath and motion pictures of Bergen Belsen as proof.

6,000,000 stuck.

I'm not a rabbi, so, I don't know what significance the 5,000,000 number holds where gematria and the Torah and talmud are concerned. Neither number should be seriously entertained as an accurate reporting of the kerfuffle when there was absolutely no way to know what was going on. I find your claim that it was more prominently touted dubious, but it's still irrelevant given the 6,000,000 figure was adopted.

What I am personally left with regarding the butchers bill for the jews during ww2 is having to do my own thorough accounting, which is a project that may exceed the grains of sand in the hourglass that is my life. I certainly won't be treating the 6,000,000 figure seriously given its sorted history.

The issue I have is your attributing the 6,000,000 figure to Holiness rather than , oh that's about how many Jews resided in the Pale of Settlement. How are you so sure it's to do with Holiness? How do you explain 5,000,000 being featured so prominently as well? Answer these questions and maybe you'll see the logical error you're making.

AI analysis, maybe that will help you understand as well

https://g.co/gemini/share/d739a11d14d5

[Stubble]

Dude, your AI's analysis is twisted. One place it puts the cart before the horse is thinking I am the one who made up this 'prophecy'. I'm not. I don't wear tefillin and I don't do gematria.

If that wasn't out there, I wouldn't cite it.

I'm also not saying '6,000,000 jews died because sky daddy said jews can have their magic dirt back if 6,000,000 of them go out of a chimney as smoke'. I'm saying 'people ran around claiming 6,000,000 died/were dying because they believed in this prophecy'. There is a distinction there that seems to be getting missed.

With regard to your claim about 5,000,000 also being made, I just want to ask, how many times was the 5,000,000 claim made contemporary with the end of the war or with the war crimes trials? I'll also posit that some folks may have left some room for the last 1,000,000 to 'die' so it wouldn't look as ridiculous when they claimed 6,000,000 in the end. I'll also ask, how many of them went on to claim 6,000,000 at the close of the war.

I'm not going to ask you to do my homework for me though, so, if you provide me with source, I will winnow away at it and see if there is any wheat left in the pan when I get done. If you have provided sources previously, I missed it.

[bombsaway]

I'm saying 'people ran around claiming 6,000,000 died/were dying because they believed in this prophecy'.

This is purely speculative, based on the evidence you've provided so far (which has been exclusively from contemporary Christian sources). If you're saying this prophecy was well known 100 years ago to Jews, you should be able to find appropriate Jewish sources.


So these were honest believers? what does this have to do with The Hoax, which is about spreading a deliberate mistruth.

[Fred Ziffel]

Just a few thoughts in the attached

[Stubble]

I'm saying 'people ran around claiming 6,000,000 died/were dying because they believed in this prophecy'.

This is purely speculative, based on the evidence you've provided so far (which has been exclusively from contemporary Christian sources). If you're saying this prophecy was well known 100 years ago to Jews, you should be able to find appropriate Jewish sources.


So these were honest believers? what does this have to do with The Hoax, which is about spreading a deliberate mistruth.

Looking for a 'kosher' source for you (I apologize the others were Christian, the first one referred to the old testament as the torah, and the second was talking about hebrew, I thought they were jewish) I find rabbis talking 'around' it (eg Elezar Shach), but not to it. I'm also looking for a source that predates the event.

I find this dig rather unpleasant however, as what I find most often isn't from the torah but from the talmud, and it says a lot of not nice things about Germans being amalek, edomites, esav etc. I know this is in there, 'Germania of Edom' (Christian Europe) etc, but, I still don't like reading it. (Eg: Megillah 6b)

I don't spend much time reading about jesus in the talmud either.

The ember of contempt jewry holds in its mouth for White People is rather jarring.

I'm going to get some sleep and I'll dig in to this a bit more later.

Also, concerning promoters of the 6,000,000, there is of course Guzma to consider...

[Nessie]

If the historically agreed death toll was 5 million, and that was the commonly used number by the media, then Holocaust conspiracists would cherry-pick pre and wartime references to 5 million, and claim, look, it was predicted!

https://www.google.com/search?q=%225%2C ... 00+Jews%22

[HansHill]

If the historically agreed death toll was 5 million, and that was the commonly used number by the media, then Holocaust conspiracists would cherry-pick pre and wartime references to 5 million, and claim, look, it was predicted!

https://www.google.com/search?q=%225%2C ... 00+Jews%22

>If things were different we would be discussing different things

Yes.

[Nessie]

If the historically agreed death toll was 5 million, and that was the commonly used number by the media, then Holocaust conspiracists would cherry-pick pre and wartime references to 5 million, and claim, look, it was predicted!

https://www.google.com/search?q=%225%2C ... 00+Jews%22

>If things were different we would be discussing different things

Yes.

If 6 million Jews was the only number used before and during the war, then it would be significant that 6 million became the commonly used death toll. Since other figures were used, in particular 5 and 4 million, before and during the war, that 6 million became the commonly used death toll after the war, is not significant. The idea that the final death toll was being accurately and uniquely predicted before and during the war, fails, because various figures were being used.

[HansHill]

Again.

If the Jews made up a figure of 10 million killed, and some bright eyed person spotted a recurring figure of 10 million across time in global literature, we would talk about that, and not any instances of 11 or 9. What you are saying isn't profound.

[Nessie]

Again.

If the Jews made up a figure of 10 million killed, and some bright eyed person spotted a recurring figure of 10 million across time in global literature, we would talk about that, and not any instances of 11 or 9. What you are saying isn't profound.

The 6 million figure was often at risk of persecution, rather than being killed and many references were about the Soviet Union, not Nazi Germany.

The 6 million figure was used along with other figures, such as 5 and 4 million, so it is hardly significant that one of those figures was also used as the common death toll post war.

This is an example of conspiratorial thinking by so-called revisionists.

[HansHill]

I wonder can Bombsaway find the same frequency of 1,300,000 Persecuted / Exterminated Cambodians in the century leading up to the Killing Fields. All things being equal and letting things fall where they may, this should be expected.

[Nazgul]

The 6 million figure was used along with other figures, such as 5 and 4 million, so it is hardly significant that one of those figures was also used as the common death toll post war.

6 million is a trope of Jews, in all facets of their existence. The figure far outweighs any other. It was used recently by Israel about the extermination of another 6 million by Iran in another <<<holocaust.

The figure was derived after WWII by deducting the existing number of Jude in Europe from the mentioned 9 million.
You ask where did they go.

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