In response to this thread of false claims;
https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=400
"...Nessie types have a clever knack of changing the subject and swerving certain questions and areas that presumably they feel uncertain of their position on or realise that these will get them roasted and exposed should they get involved."
There is NO topic that causes any uncertainty on my part.
Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"...talking about some technical aspect of a gassing (ie HcN concentrations, no Kula columns, no holes etc)..."
Response;
My position on "technical" discussions about gassing is clear and consistent. We do not have all of the details about the functioning of the gas chambers and many details, such as NcN concentrations, are unknown. The so-called "technical" discussions are really just elaborate arguments from incredulity, whereby so-called revisionists claim that because they cannot work out how the gas chambers could have functioned, therefore there were no gas chambers. That is a logical fallacy.
Kula columns are evidenced by eyewitnesses and the document recording a mesh insertion device. The holes are evidenced by eyewitnesses, the photos of the Krema under construction which show the covers and the holes themselves, in the roofs of Kremas I and II.
"...talking about some technical aspect of a gassing (ie HcN concentrations, no Kula columns, no holes etc)..."
Response;
My position on "technical" discussions about gassing is clear and consistent. We do not have all of the details about the functioning of the gas chambers and many details, such as NcN concentrations, are unknown. The so-called "technical" discussions are really just elaborate arguments from incredulity, whereby so-called revisionists claim that because they cannot work out how the gas chambers could have functioned, therefore there were no gas chambers. That is a logical fallacy.
Kula columns are evidenced by eyewitnesses and the document recording a mesh insertion device. The holes are evidenced by eyewitnesses, the photos of the Krema under construction which show the covers and the holes themselves, in the roofs of Kremas I and II.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"the hierarchy of evidence being another topic heavily evaded by exterminationists"
Response;
Supposedly, there is too much reliance on witness evidence. When it comes to the hierarchy of evidence, witness evidence comes top, when it comes to chronological narrative. Other evidence, such as archaeology and documents, provide snapshots, rather than what happened over time. When 100% of eyewitnesses agree on the basic narrative, and they come from disparate backgrounds, Jewish, Nazi, from multiple countries, that is very strong corroborative evidence.
Those witnesses are then corroborated by evidence that is generally regarded as more reliable. For example, all of the eyewitnesses who worked at the AR camps, all 100% of them, report mass transports full of people, arriving regularly at the camps. They are corroborated by train timetables and reports of the numbers on the transports and arriving at the camps. The more reliable documents agree with the eyewitnesses.
Considering how often so-called revisionists mix up hearsay and eyewitness evidence, as if they are the same, it is them who actually struggle with the hierarchy of evidence.
"the hierarchy of evidence being another topic heavily evaded by exterminationists"
Response;
Supposedly, there is too much reliance on witness evidence. When it comes to the hierarchy of evidence, witness evidence comes top, when it comes to chronological narrative. Other evidence, such as archaeology and documents, provide snapshots, rather than what happened over time. When 100% of eyewitnesses agree on the basic narrative, and they come from disparate backgrounds, Jewish, Nazi, from multiple countries, that is very strong corroborative evidence.
Those witnesses are then corroborated by evidence that is generally regarded as more reliable. For example, all of the eyewitnesses who worked at the AR camps, all 100% of them, report mass transports full of people, arriving regularly at the camps. They are corroborated by train timetables and reports of the numbers on the transports and arriving at the camps. The more reliable documents agree with the eyewitnesses.
Considering how often so-called revisionists mix up hearsay and eyewitness evidence, as if they are the same, it is them who actually struggle with the hierarchy of evidence.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"Some topics they, to this very day, refuse to engage with in any serious way:
The cremation fuel problem.
The cremation time problem.
The refractory brickwork problem.
The open-air incineration pits problem.
The Sonderkommando/Aktion 1005 logistics absurdity.
The Operation Reinhard extermination of workable Jews problem."
Response;
There are no definitive details about how much fuel was needed for the cremations and where it came from. There is also a lack of detail as to exactly how long cremations took, issues with brickwork and how the open air pyres worked. That lack of detail, meaning we are just not sure how the cremations worked, is not the problem so-called revisionists think it is. There are a lot of historical events, around which there is a lack of detail. But, we know those events took place, as there is evidence to prove they happened.
The so-called problems, are just more examples of the argument from incredulity, whereby it is argued that because there is a supposed problem with how something could have worked, it is claimed therefore it did not work and so did not happen.
It does not matter that we do not know precisely how long it took to cremate corpses, or exactly where the fuel came from, or how much was used. What matters is, whether there is evidence to prove mass cremations happened. There is.
I am not sure what the supposed Aktion 1005 logistics and AR problems are.
"Some topics they, to this very day, refuse to engage with in any serious way:
The cremation fuel problem.
The cremation time problem.
The refractory brickwork problem.
The open-air incineration pits problem.
The Sonderkommando/Aktion 1005 logistics absurdity.
The Operation Reinhard extermination of workable Jews problem."
Response;
There are no definitive details about how much fuel was needed for the cremations and where it came from. There is also a lack of detail as to exactly how long cremations took, issues with brickwork and how the open air pyres worked. That lack of detail, meaning we are just not sure how the cremations worked, is not the problem so-called revisionists think it is. There are a lot of historical events, around which there is a lack of detail. But, we know those events took place, as there is evidence to prove they happened.
The so-called problems, are just more examples of the argument from incredulity, whereby it is argued that because there is a supposed problem with how something could have worked, it is claimed therefore it did not work and so did not happen.
It does not matter that we do not know precisely how long it took to cremate corpses, or exactly where the fuel came from, or how much was used. What matters is, whether there is evidence to prove mass cremations happened. There is.
I am not sure what the supposed Aktion 1005 logistics and AR problems are.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"They really do not like having to defend any of the classic eyewitnesses like Hoess, Gerstein, Nyiszli, etc... They also don't like being confronted with the actual texts of these testimonies, nor when any sort of analysis is done."
Response;
Those witnesses are easily defendable, including the coerced testimony from Hoess. They are ALL CORROBORATED.
As for "analysis", so-called revisionists are doing no such thing. Instead, they are looking for excuses to disbelieve. They make no effort to assess witnesses in the context of what is known about their behaviour, memory and recall. They confuse credibility with truthfulness and mix hearsay and eyewitness evidence as if it is the same thing. The result is the extraordinary claim that 100% of the eyewitnesses who worked inside the various death camp sites, lied and no truthful witness has ever been traced or come forward.
"They really do not like having to defend any of the classic eyewitnesses like Hoess, Gerstein, Nyiszli, etc... They also don't like being confronted with the actual texts of these testimonies, nor when any sort of analysis is done."
Response;
Those witnesses are easily defendable, including the coerced testimony from Hoess. They are ALL CORROBORATED.
As for "analysis", so-called revisionists are doing no such thing. Instead, they are looking for excuses to disbelieve. They make no effort to assess witnesses in the context of what is known about their behaviour, memory and recall. They confuse credibility with truthfulness and mix hearsay and eyewitness evidence as if it is the same thing. The result is the extraordinary claim that 100% of the eyewitnesses who worked inside the various death camp sites, lied and no truthful witness has ever been traced or come forward.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"A big sticking point is that they are generally unwilling to acknowledge any sort of lying or dishonesty (or really even bias) on the part of the Allies or Jews, nor do they acknowledge that atrocity propaganda is a thing. When they reluctantly admit errors, as a rule they will spin these as "honest mistakes." Witnesses get things wrong because of "hearsay," memory lapses, or innumeracy but never lying. That is a no-go area for them. And the same with official investigative bodies. "Mistakes" perhaps but no lying. HC claims that the wildly inflated Soviet death tolls were the result of "miscalculation." They say the 4M Auschwitz number was an earnest attempt to get an accurate number. They have to argue this because they know that to acknowledge all these things would be a systemic threat to their position."
Response;
It is acknowledged that lying, exaggeration and atrocity propaganda all took place. The issue is what can be proven as lying etc. So-called revisionists just dismiss anything they do not like the look of, as a lie. They do not know how to evidence and prove a lie and as a result, despite denying this, they conclude that 100% of the workers at the death camps lied.
There is no reluctance to stating that witness made mistakes, forget or got their estimations wrong. That takes cognisance of the study of witness behaviour, memory and recollection, something so-called revisionists ignore. Instead, they claim that is evidence of lying, but they cannot prove that. The inflated Soviet death tolls are widely acknowledged amongst historians. So-called revisionists do not acknowledge that western death tolls were lower and the Soviet ones dropped completely, after the collapse of the SU.
"A big sticking point is that they are generally unwilling to acknowledge any sort of lying or dishonesty (or really even bias) on the part of the Allies or Jews, nor do they acknowledge that atrocity propaganda is a thing. When they reluctantly admit errors, as a rule they will spin these as "honest mistakes." Witnesses get things wrong because of "hearsay," memory lapses, or innumeracy but never lying. That is a no-go area for them. And the same with official investigative bodies. "Mistakes" perhaps but no lying. HC claims that the wildly inflated Soviet death tolls were the result of "miscalculation." They say the 4M Auschwitz number was an earnest attempt to get an accurate number. They have to argue this because they know that to acknowledge all these things would be a systemic threat to their position."
Response;
It is acknowledged that lying, exaggeration and atrocity propaganda all took place. The issue is what can be proven as lying etc. So-called revisionists just dismiss anything they do not like the look of, as a lie. They do not know how to evidence and prove a lie and as a result, despite denying this, they conclude that 100% of the workers at the death camps lied.
There is no reluctance to stating that witness made mistakes, forget or got their estimations wrong. That takes cognisance of the study of witness behaviour, memory and recollection, something so-called revisionists ignore. Instead, they claim that is evidence of lying, but they cannot prove that. The inflated Soviet death tolls are widely acknowledged amongst historians. So-called revisionists do not acknowledge that western death tolls were lower and the Soviet ones dropped completely, after the collapse of the SU.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"They really don't like discussing the six million."
Response;
The reality is that so-called revisionists do not like discussing that 4, 5 and even 7 million were also used as figures before the war, to describe Jews at risk from repression. They also do not like to discuss that many of those claims were in relation to being at risk from the Soviets, not the Nazis. Instead, they only look for references to 6 millions, so that is all they find!
The 6 million death toll is primarily derived from Nazi sources and it was a Nazi, Hoettl, at the IMT, who first used it as the death toll. Historians prefer a range, due to uncertainty, so many sources use approximately 6 million, or around 6 million, or 5 to 6 million, not just 6 million.
"They really don't like discussing the six million."
Response;
The reality is that so-called revisionists do not like discussing that 4, 5 and even 7 million were also used as figures before the war, to describe Jews at risk from repression. They also do not like to discuss that many of those claims were in relation to being at risk from the Soviets, not the Nazis. Instead, they only look for references to 6 millions, so that is all they find!
The 6 million death toll is primarily derived from Nazi sources and it was a Nazi, Hoettl, at the IMT, who first used it as the death toll. Historians prefer a range, due to uncertainty, so many sources use approximately 6 million, or around 6 million, or 5 to 6 million, not just 6 million.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"I would add two subjects where the Believers are all at sea; Firstly Treblinka which in my opinion it is an epic fail for them. They simply cannot square the circle on that one and make themselves look very foolish in the process.
Secondly a subject I did a separate thread on and got no takers from the bed wetters. The disposal of cremains in Auschwitz."
Response;
Historians cannot square what circle? Typically, a claim is being made, with no substance. Historians can produce an evidenced chronology of events, proving the usage of TII, from opening to closing. So-called revisionists cannot and instead they produce a series of unconvincingly claimed usages, that even they cannot agree on, because of the lack of evidence.
The remains from the A-B Kremas were variously disposed of by spreading around fields and dumping in nearby rivers. A Polish forensic investigation, found evidence of cremains on ground around Birkenau.
"I would add two subjects where the Believers are all at sea; Firstly Treblinka which in my opinion it is an epic fail for them. They simply cannot square the circle on that one and make themselves look very foolish in the process.
Secondly a subject I did a separate thread on and got no takers from the bed wetters. The disposal of cremains in Auschwitz."
Response;
Historians cannot square what circle? Typically, a claim is being made, with no substance. Historians can produce an evidenced chronology of events, proving the usage of TII, from opening to closing. So-called revisionists cannot and instead they produce a series of unconvincingly claimed usages, that even they cannot agree on, because of the lack of evidence.
The remains from the A-B Kremas were variously disposed of by spreading around fields and dumping in nearby rivers. A Polish forensic investigation, found evidence of cremains on ground around Birkenau.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"The absurdity of building Treblinka even after the supposed expansion of the gas chambers in Belzec and Sobibor, which would have been enough to empty the General Government and the entire area of influence of the Reich in a few months, is already absurd. Even more absurd is the lack of consideration for the construction of permanent crematoriums in these camps. As for the absurdity of Blobel traveling through huge areas looking for mass graves to destroy the evidence, without any evidence of Soviet aerial reconnaissance aircraft, no partisans recording these cremations, nothing."
Response;
That is pure argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.
"The absurdity of building Treblinka even after the supposed expansion of the gas chambers in Belzec and Sobibor, which would have been enough to empty the General Government and the entire area of influence of the Reich in a few months, is already absurd. Even more absurd is the lack of consideration for the construction of permanent crematoriums in these camps. As for the absurdity of Blobel traveling through huge areas looking for mass graves to destroy the evidence, without any evidence of Soviet aerial reconnaissance aircraft, no partisans recording these cremations, nothing."
Response;
That is pure argument from incredulity, a logical fallacy.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"[1] – The door to ‘gas chamber’ at Auschwitz
Response;
In 1941-2, that was a door into a wash/store room, that then led to the gas chamber. The wall between the wash/store room and gas chamber was subsequently demolished. Original plan below;
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0151.shtml
When someone thinks that was the door to the gas chambers, it proves they have done no research, no checking and that they will easily be fooled.
"[1] – The door to ‘gas chamber’ at Auschwitz
Response;
In 1941-2, that was a door into a wash/store room, that then led to the gas chamber. The wall between the wash/store room and gas chamber was subsequently demolished. Original plan below;
https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0151.shtml
When someone thinks that was the door to the gas chambers, it proves they have done no research, no checking and that they will easily be fooled.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"[2] – From the most widely distributed book on the hoax, E. Wiesel’s ‘Night’ – “Babies were thrown into the air and used as targets for machine guns’. Wiesel was a prisoner at Auschwitz when the Nazis were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews PER DAY in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms, yet his book doesn’t mention gas chambers and says the Nazis killed the Jews by tossing them alive into burning pits, one for adults, one for children."
Response;
Wiesel recounted atrocity stories in his works, but there is a lot of evidence of cruelty and the murder of children, starting with Aktion T4. Wiesel's narrative works are not used by historians, as much of it is hearsay. There is ample eyewitness evidence, that is used in preference.
"[2] – From the most widely distributed book on the hoax, E. Wiesel’s ‘Night’ – “Babies were thrown into the air and used as targets for machine guns’. Wiesel was a prisoner at Auschwitz when the Nazis were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews PER DAY in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms, yet his book doesn’t mention gas chambers and says the Nazis killed the Jews by tossing them alive into burning pits, one for adults, one for children."
Response;
Wiesel recounted atrocity stories in his works, but there is a lot of evidence of cruelty and the murder of children, starting with Aktion T4. Wiesel's narrative works are not used by historians, as much of it is hearsay. There is ample eyewitness evidence, that is used in preference.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
Claim;
"They don’t like talking about the criminalisation of doubt, skepticism and disbelief: i.e. of thought crimes.
Q. What sort of ‘history’ needs to imprison people for not believing in (or just expressing doubt about) specific parts of it?
A. A bogus one that relies on fear and judicial intimidation."
Response;
Holocaust denial laws have come about, because of Holocaust deniers lying through their teeth, to spread hate about Jews. The so-called revision of the history of the Holocaust, is no such thing, as if fails to evidence what happened to the millions of Jews arrested 1939-44, where they were in 1944 and liberation in 1945.
Common lies are that there is a lack of evidence for the mass gassings, or the one about the door into the gas chambers at Krema I, that the death toll was the 271k recorded for only 11 camps by the IRC, or that every single worker at the death camps lied.
"They don’t like talking about the criminalisation of doubt, skepticism and disbelief: i.e. of thought crimes.
Q. What sort of ‘history’ needs to imprison people for not believing in (or just expressing doubt about) specific parts of it?
A. A bogus one that relies on fear and judicial intimidation."
Response;
Holocaust denial laws have come about, because of Holocaust deniers lying through their teeth, to spread hate about Jews. The so-called revision of the history of the Holocaust, is no such thing, as if fails to evidence what happened to the millions of Jews arrested 1939-44, where they were in 1944 and liberation in 1945.
Common lies are that there is a lack of evidence for the mass gassings, or the one about the door into the gas chambers at Krema I, that the death toll was the 271k recorded for only 11 camps by the IRC, or that every single worker at the death camps lied.
Re: Holocaust topics the "Believer Brigades" will supposedly not touch.
*10 - Is it - True. - or - False. - that; The largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the one hundred graves / cremation pits in question at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II,
( http://thisisaboutscience.com/ )
in which verified human remains have been tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, is - THIS SOBIBOR GRAVE - ??
