Request: documents showing "designs" for "gas chambers"

[Archie]

They are corroborated by SS and Topf & Sons documents that record the ordering, design, construction and use of gas chambers and multiple corpse cremation ovens.

Please produce these documents for us. I am especially interested in seeing the "designs" for the "gas chambers" that you claim exist.

[Stubble]

Gonna be a long wait Archie.

[Nessie]

They are corroborated by SS and Topf & Sons documents that record the ordering, design, construction and use of gas chambers and multiple corpse cremation ovens.

Please produce these documents for us. I am especially interested in seeing the "designs" for the "gas chambers" that you claim exist.

I have linked to and quoted from the list on numerous occasions;

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

It chronologically charts the work for the "special" action/treatment, that needed multiple barracks to store property, undressing rooms, gas chambers/cellars and mass corpse cremation ovens.

The design part of the gas chambers involves the construction of a gas chamber inside each crematorium. That makes the Kremas unique, as no other crematorium, that I am aware of, was ever fitted with a gas chamber. It involves the fitting of "gas tight" doors and windows, specially constructed by the camp's workshops. From descriptions, they are reinforced delousing chamber doors. A gas detection device is also installed, obviously to check for leaks. There are documents referring to the ventilation system, shower fittings, a mesh slide in device and covers. They corroborate witness descriptions of Zyklon B being dropped into mesh columns, through holes in the roof that had covers and the gas chambers made to look like showers. A shower head, part of a gas mask and vent cover were all recovered from the ruins of Krema II, during work to stop it from flooding in 2006;

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/museum/new ... u-,81.html

There is more detail on the actual design from the Topf & Sons engineers;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

The sentence of mine you quote, was not just referring to the gas chambers, but also the ovens.

[Archie]

I have linked to and quoted from the list on numerous occasions;

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

It chronologically charts the work for the "special" action/treatment, that needed multiple barracks to store property, undressing rooms, gas chambers/cellars and mass corpse cremation ovens.

The design part of the gas chambers involves the construction of a gas chamber inside each crematorium. That makes the Kremas unique, as no other crematorium, that I am aware of, was ever fitted with a gas chamber. It involves the fitting of "gas tight" doors and windows, specially constructed by the camp's workshops. From descriptions, they are reinforced delousing chamber doors. A gas detection device is also installed, obviously to check for leaks. There are documents referring to the ventilation system, shower fittings, a mesh slide in device and covers. They corroborate witness descriptions of Zyklon B being dropped into mesh columns, through holes in the roof that had covers and the gas chambers made to look like showers. A shower head, part of a gas mask and vent cover were all recovered from the ruins of Krema II, during work to stop it from flooding in 2006;

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/museum/new ... u-,81.html

There is more detail on the actual design from the Topf & Sons engineers;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

No document dump. You said you could show us "documents" with "designs" for "gas chambers." Show them.

Your last link is to a post titled "Auschwitz Testimonies of the Topf engineers." No. No testimonies. You said you had documents which I took to mean contemporaneous war-time documents.

The sentence of mine you quote, was not just referring to the gas chambers, but also the ovens.

You said you had both. Gas chambers AND ovens. Everyone agrees there are designs for ovens. I asked to see the ones for gas chambers.

[Archie]

Also, Nessie, as an aside, the Holocaust Handbooks volume on the Topf engineers has been out for two years now. I have been waiting with bated breath for your review of that volume. As the Topf engineers are your favorite talking point and seem to be the key source of your faith in the Holocaust, I was sure you would be eager to read that book and refute it.

https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/aus ... in-moscow/

[Eye of Zyclone]

Why would engineers of crematory ovens and morgues have designed gas chambers? That was more a job for Degesch engineers. Converting delousing gas chambers into homicidal gas chambers would have been a breeze, but no disinfestation/pest-control engineers were tasked with that job for a reason...

[Archie]

From the HC link Nessie posted in response.

First item

Letter of 14 July 1941 from the Topf engineer Paul Erdmann to the construction office Mauthausen on a cremation rate of 33 to 40 min per corpse "without overloading" the two-muffle oven [Rebuttal of Mattogno on Auschwitz, Part 1: Indoor Cremation]

Not what I asked for.

Second item

Report of 30 October 1941 from the construction office Auschwitz on "60 men can be cremated" in the Topf five three muffle ovens within one hour Bartosik, The origins of the Birkenau camp, p. 170, see also Rebuttal of Mattogno on Auschwitz, Part 1: Indoor Cremation]

Not what I asked for.

Third item

List of constructions of 31 March 1942 on "5 horse stable barracks | special treatment" [Mattogno, STIA, p. 36]

Not what I asked for.

Nessie, this is very poor form. If you have what you claim you have, you should be able to point us to a specific document. "The needle is somewhere in this haystack."

[Nessie]

I have linked to and quoted from the list on numerous occasions;

https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot ... ce-on.html

It chronologically charts the work for the "special" action/treatment, that needed multiple barracks to store property, undressing rooms, gas chambers/cellars and mass corpse cremation ovens.

The design part of the gas chambers involves the construction of a gas chamber inside each crematorium. That makes the Kremas unique, as no other crematorium, that I am aware of, was ever fitted with a gas chamber. It involves the fitting of "gas tight" doors and windows, specially constructed by the camp's workshops. From descriptions, they are reinforced delousing chamber doors. A gas detection device is also installed, obviously to check for leaks. There are documents referring to the ventilation system, shower fittings, a mesh slide in device and covers. They corroborate witness descriptions of Zyklon B being dropped into mesh columns, through holes in the roof that had covers and the gas chambers made to look like showers. A shower head, part of a gas mask and vent cover were all recovered from the ruins of Krema II, during work to stop it from flooding in 2006;

https://www.auschwitz.org/en/museum/new ... u-,81.html

There is more detail on the actual design from the Topf & Sons engineers;

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=61650

No document dump. You said you could show us "documents" with "designs" for "gas chambers." Show them.

Your last link is to a post titled "Auschwitz Testimonies of the Topf engineers." No. No testimonies. You said you had documents which I took to mean contemporaneous war-time documents.

The sentence of mine you quote, was not just referring to the gas chambers, but also the ovens.

You said you had both. Gas chambers AND ovens. Everyone agrees there are designs for ovens. I asked to see the ones for gas chambers.

From the "document dump", as explained;

- construction of gas chambers -
Delivery note of 24 February 1943 on “fittings of 12 gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 443]
Work time sheet of 28 February 1943 on “fit gas tight windows” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 445]
Work time sheet of 2 March 1943 on “concrete in gas chamber” in crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 446]

- gas tight doors -
Order of 13 February 1943 on “12 gas tight doors approx. 30/40” for crematorium 4 and 5 [Pressac, Technique, p. 444]
Order of 15 February 1943 on “210 anchors for gas tight doors” for crematorium 4 [Pressac, Technique, p. 448]

- gas detection device -
Letter from Topf to central construction office Auschwitz of 2 March 1943 on “display devices for hydrogen cyanide residues” for crematorium 2 [Pressac, Die Krematorien von Auschwitz, p. 92]

- ventilation and heating -
Memo of 25 March 1943 on “hot air supply device for corpse cellar 1” in crematorium 2 [Pressac, Technique, p. 230]
Material list of 13 April 1943 on “extension of the aeration and deaeration device (warm air supply) of the crematorium II” [Rudolf Report, 2nd edition]

- shower fittings -
Transfer inventory of 24 June 1943 on “14 showers” and “1 gas tight door” in crematorium 3 [Pressac, Technique , p. 430]

- mesh device and covers -
Transfer inventory of 31 March 1943 on “4 wire mesh slide in devices” and “wooden covers” in the crematorium 2 basement [Pressac, Technique, p. 430]

Now, show me a design of another crematorium, that includes all of that work.

[Archie]

Nessie, that's the Pressac criminal trace stuff, first published in 1989.

There were loads of gas-tight doors produced during the war for innocuous purposes. Gas-tight features were ordered to be installed in Crematorium I in the Auschwitz main camp in 1944, AFTER it was said to have been used as a gas chamber. Hence your implicit premise, that gas-tight features necessarily indicate a homicidal gas chamber, is false.

Here was your original claim:

They are corroborated by SS and Topf & Sons documents that record the ordering, design, construction and use of gas chambers and multiple corpse cremation ovens.

You do not understand Pressac. Pressac argues 1) that the buildings were NOT originally "designed" to have gas chambers, 2) that we can only conclude gas chambers based on these "criminal traces" which he says should not automatically interpret as referring to homicidal gas chambers (like you are doing above).

Pressac:

Concerning the history of the camp, it could be demonstrated that the Kremas had started off as normal sanitary facilities; then later changed into liquidation centers for “Jews unable to work”, that is women, children and the elderly.

What I indicate as being " criminal traces" arise from the difference between the normal installations of a normal crematory, one intended just to incinerate the dead and primarily including one or more mortuaries, along with an autopsy room which was legally mandated and a room for furnaces and coke storage; and those in an abnormal crematory which would have a homicidal gas chamber. This installation or this transformation required particular pieces of equipment which one finds mention of in the SS correspondence with the civilian firms or in their building site logs. A better definition would be “traces of criminal installations”. The search for such “traces” would not be possible if the Kremas had a criminal beginning, as the Polish historians believed for 40 years.

[Nessie]

Nessie, that's the Pressac criminal trace stuff, first published in 1989.

There were loads of gas-tight doors produced during the war for innocuous purposes. Gas-tight features were ordered to be installed in Crematorium I in the Auschwitz main camp in 1944, AFTER it was said to have been used as a gas chamber. Hence your implicit premise, that gas-tight features necessarily indicate a homicidal gas chamber, is false.

Just because some gas tight doors are used for non-homicidal purposes, does not mean all were. The reason why we know that, is because of evidence of usage. For example, gas tight doors for delousing chambers and in 1944, for Krema I. The evidence of usage is of delousing clothing and a bomb shelter. Therefore, those doors did not serve a homicidal purpose.
That does not therefore mean the gas tight doors ordered for Kremas II to V, in 1943, were for non-homicidal purposes.

Here was your original claim:

They are corroborated by SS and Topf & Sons documents that record the ordering, design, construction and use of gas chambers and multiple corpse cremation ovens.

You do not understand Pressac. Pressac argues 1) that the buildings were NOT originally "designed" to have gas chambers, 2) that we can only conclude gas chambers based on these "criminal traces" which he says should not automatically interpret as referring to homicidal gas chambers (like you are doing above).

Pressac:

Concerning the history of the camp, it could be demonstrated that the Kremas had started off as normal sanitary facilities; then later changed into liquidation centers for “Jews unable to work”, that is women, children and the elderly.

What I indicate as being " criminal traces" arise from the difference between the normal installations of a normal crematory, one intended just to incinerate the dead and primarily including one or more mortuaries, along with an autopsy room which was legally mandated and a room for furnaces and coke storage; and those in an abnormal crematory which would have a homicidal gas chamber. This installation or this transformation required particular pieces of equipment which one finds mention of in the SS correspondence with the civilian firms or in their building site logs. A better definition would be “traces of criminal installations”. The search for such “traces” would not be possible if the Kremas had a criminal beginning, as the Polish historians believed for 40 years.

Kremas II to V were not originally designed to be used for gassings. We know that, because of the circumstantial evidence around the original purpose for Birkenau, as a labour camp, that would serve as the location for crematoriums for the entire Auschwitz camp complex. Then, in 1943, evidence appears, in the form of documents, that records the repurposing of the Kremas, to contain features unique to them. No other crematoriums in the world, had a heated undressing room, ventilated gas chamber, mass corpse cremation ovens, barracks to store property, for a special action involving infirm prisoners, Jews and Hungarians. Photos show that there were now holes in the roof of the Leichenkeller. A document records shower fittings and in 2011, restoration work in the Krema II, found part of a gas mask, a vent and a shower head. Forensic testing of samples from the wall and a vent, finds that the building had been exposed to HCN. That documentary, physical and forensic evidence corroborates the eyewitnesses who worked inside the Kremas, who all speak to their use for gassings.

It is notable that you use evidence to determine what took place inside the delousing chambers and that Krema I was an air raid shelter in 1944, but you have to switch to trying to argue Kremas II to V were not used for gassings.

The documents from the Construction Office and Topf & Sons, prove that Kremas II to V, were subject to a redesign in 1943, to install gas chambers. Since the camp already had delousing chambers for clothes and in December 1943, that was expanded with the construction of the Central Sauna, for delousing and prisoner showering, leaves so-called revisionists scrabbling about, trying to argue a different purpose, rather than evidencing. You don't argue that the Central Sauna was used for delousing and shower, you evidence that is what it used for, with documents about its design and testimony of those who worked there.

[Wetzelrad]

Then, in 1943, evidence appears, in the form of documents, that records the repurposing of the Kremas, to contain features unique to them. No other crematoriums in the world, had a heated undressing room, ventilated gas chamber, mass corpse cremation ovens, barracks to store property, for a special action involving infirm prisoners, Jews and Hungarians.

This is an utterly worthless claim since refuting it would demand that Archie have totally worthless encyclopedic knowledge of every crematorium in the world. None the less, there is an obvious example of one crematorium that has exactly these features.

The Dachau crematorium had a heated undressing room, a ventilated room called a "gas chamber", very comparable double-muffle cremation ovens, a variety of storehouses and warehouses nearby, and there are even incriminating documents. It also had a Zyklon storeroom and four real gas chambers. And yet no one was gassed there!

Why do these features evidence 0 gassings at one place but 500,000 gassings at another?

[Archie]

Just because some gas tight doors are used for non-homicidal purposes, does not mean all were. The reason why we know that, is because of evidence of usage. For example, gas tight doors for delousing chambers and in 1944, for Krema I. The evidence of usage is of delousing clothing and a bomb shelter. Therefore, those doors did not serve a homicidal purpose.
That does not therefore mean the gas tight doors ordered for Kremas II to V, in 1943, were for non-homicidal purposes.

Unless the gas-tight doors are necessarily homicidal, then your original argument fails. You assumed in your post that documents referring to gas-tight features MUST indicate a homicidal gas chamber. If such features have other potential explanations, then the documents are ambiguous and you will need a much more involved argument to prove your thesis (which is what Pressac attempts to do).

You say "evidence of usage," but what you really mean here is just testimonies. No. You said you had gas chamber designs. Now you are backtracking and saying your conclusion is really based on mere testimonies.

Conversion of the Old Crematorium, August 26, 1944 (Crowell, 209; ZBL, 502-1-401)

Re: Conversion of the old Crematorium for civil defense purposes
Attachment: 1 plan.
In the Attachment I present a plan for the conversion of the old crematorium for
civil defense purposes with a request to authorize this conversion.

[...]

Install the gastight doors, window shutters, and windows,

By your logic, the above is proof that they were intending to gas people in the main camp crematorium in late 1944.

[Archie]

The way Nessie has grossly oversold this (and that's the charitable way to put it) is almost as bad as his bluff that the CSC thesis contains "photos galore" of "abundant remains."

Nessie has been saying this "2 hectares/50 Olympic swimming pools!" thing forever. This is what he does. He gets these little mantras in his head and he just repeats them over an over, totally ignoring counterpoints.

He claims (falsely) that CSC's dissertation has "photos galore" of human remains.

I will repeat my advice to you from the other thread. It is really not in your interest to bluff like this.

Another tip I would give you. Statements like the following, I think are a mistake (even from your side's perspective): "They are corroborated by SS and Topf & Sons documents that record the ordering, design, construction and use of gas chambers and multiple corpse cremation ovens." You are overplaying your hand. You do this habitually. The problem here is that if someone follows up and asks to see these "records" with "designs" for "gas chambers" what you have to show them will not measure up to what you have promised in that sentence. And then your credibility is shot. This is one of the main things that turned me away from the anti-revisionist side early on. If you make a bold claim and I do several hours of research to confirm it and I find out you are lying to me, I'm not going to be happy with you.

[Nessie]

Then, in 1943, evidence appears, in the form of documents, that records the repurposing of the Kremas, to contain features unique to them. No other crematoriums in the world, had a heated undressing room, ventilated gas chamber, mass corpse cremation ovens, barracks to store property, for a special action involving infirm prisoners, Jews and Hungarians.

This is an utterly worthless claim since refuting it would demand that Archie have totally worthless encyclopedic knowledge of every crematorium in the world. None the less, there is an obvious example of one crematorium that has exactly these features.

Or, he could do some research and see if he can find any crematoriums that have gas chambers and what their purpose is.

The Dachau crematorium had a heated undressing room, a ventilated room called a "gas chamber", very comparable double-muffle cremation ovens, a variety of storehouses and warehouses nearby, and there are even incriminating documents. It also had a Zyklon storeroom and four real gas chambers. And yet no one was gassed there!

Why do these features evidence 0 gassings at one place but 500,000 gassings at another?

It is due to evidence of usage. As you say, there is no evidence of mass gassing at Dachau. A number of camps, such as Mauthausen did gas prisoners, under Action 14f13, the euthanasia programme, which did not just apply to Jewish but certain disabled prisoners. If anyone was gassed at Dachau, it was to euthanise them.

[Nessie]

Just because some gas tight doors are used for non-homicidal purposes, does not mean all were. The reason why we know that, is because of evidence of usage. For example, gas tight doors for delousing chambers and in 1944, for Krema I. The evidence of usage is of delousing clothing and a bomb shelter. Therefore, those doors did not serve a homicidal purpose.
That does not therefore mean the gas tight doors ordered for Kremas II to V, in 1943, were for non-homicidal purposes.

Unless the gas-tight doors are necessarily homicidal, then your original argument fails. You assumed in your post that documents referring to gas-tight features MUST indicate a homicidal gas chamber. If such features have other potential explanations, then the documents are ambiguous and you will need a much more involved argument to prove your thesis (which is what Pressac attempts to do).

I don't argue, I evidence. Unlike you, historians have successfully evidenced what the Kremas were being used for 1943-4.

You say "evidence of usage," but what you really mean here is just testimonies. No.

The evidence of usage comes from 100% of the Nazi and Jewish workers from the Kremas, corroborated by documents referring to a special action/treatment that involved only certain prisoners and needed barracks to store property, heated undressing rooms and multiple corpse cremation ovens.

You said you had gas chamber designs. Now you are backtracking and saying your conclusion is really based on mere testimonies.

No I am not. I have shown you documents recording the designing and construction of gas chambers, with gas tight doors and windows, shower fittings, a mesh insertion device, covers and a ventilation system.

Conversion of the Old Crematorium, August 26, 1944 (Crowell, 209; ZBL, 502-1-401)

Re: Conversion of the old Crematorium for civil defense purposes
Attachment: 1 plan.
In the Attachment I present a plan for the conversion of the old crematorium for
civil defense purposes with a request to authorize this conversion.

[...]

Install the gastight doors, window shutters, and windows,

By your logic, the above is proof that they were intending to gas people in the main camp crematorium in late 1944.

Wrong. I do not use that logic. I look to see what the evidence is of usage, such as this plan from September 1944;

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0156.shtml

It shows the layout for Krema I, with its chimney demolished, extra walls and air locks installed. It is, in this case, evidence that the doors were for an air raid shelter. Evidence tells us what gas tight doors were used for in the instance of Krema I in 1944. Evidence tells us that the camp's delousing chambers, also had gas tight doors. I do not try to argue that means they must have been air raid shelters.

You try to argue, illogically, that because gas tight doors are used for non-homicidal reasons, therefore they are never used for homicidal reasons. You then fail to prove what Kremas II to V were used for 1943-4. Logically and evidentially you fail.