A request to Confused Jew

[bombsaway]

I say this is a completely settled point. If the walls were painted, somebody would have noticed by now.

The witness accounts are consistent in that the gas chambers were made up to look like shower rooms, so probably painted.

Muller says they were painted and repainted

https://eusp.org/sites/default/files/in ... 061216.pdf

"The walls of the four changing rooms and the eight gas chambers were given a fresh coat of paint."

[Archie]

I say this is a completely settled point. If the walls were painted, somebody would have noticed by now.

The witness accounts are consistent in that the gas chambers were made up to look like shower rooms, so probably painted.

Muller says they were painted and repainted

https://eusp.org/sites/default/files/in ... 061216.pdf

"The walls of the four changing rooms and the eight gas chambers were given a fresh coat of paint."

So "fake shower" proves the walls were painted? Really? That's what you are going with?

And where did this paint go? Do you think Germans stripped the paint in late 1944 before the building was demolished to give holocaust deniers some ammo 40 years later? Or do you think this paint washed off? Please specify what your theory is.

[bombsaway]

I say this is a completely settled point. If the walls were painted, somebody would have noticed by now.

The witness accounts are consistent in that the gas chambers were made up to look like shower rooms, so probably painted.

Muller says they were painted and repainted

https://eusp.org/sites/default/files/in ... 061216.pdf

"The walls of the four changing rooms and the eight gas chambers were given a fresh coat of paint."

So "fake shower" proves the walls were painted? Really? That's what you are going with?

And where did this paint go? Do you think Germans stripped the paint in late 1944 before the building was demolished to give holocaust deniers some ammo 40 years later? Or do you think this paint washed off? Please specify what your theory is.

Muller was the first source I checked about the existence of paint (I had always assumed it based on the orthodox narrative - if you're fool people into thinking they're getting showers you don't put them in a place that looks like LK-1) and he said they were painted (and repainted). Do you have sources to the contrary?

The gas chambers were blown up, so the heat and force could have destroyed much of the paint, which doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Then there's exposure to the elements and the matter of time, decades . Leuchter was the first to rummage around and he did so quickly, in the dark. Your expectation seems to be he would have found paint if it had been there 40 years prior, I guffaw at that.

Nevertheless I'm prepared to take a backseat here, I'm interested in what CJ does with his LLM in the chemistry argument, which may be perfectly valid.

[Nessie]

....

The gas chambers were blown up

....

Indeed. For all we know, the walls of the farmhouse gas chambers were bright blue.

Only Krema I remains intact and its gas chamber was subject to a lot of alteration in 1944, as shown in the plan below.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... 0156.shtml

Three walls were built and a door and porch were added. It looks like the bottom section of the wall was painted black and the upper, white. It also looks like some re-plastering has been done.



Only a small part of Krema II's basement area, where the gas chamber was located, can be accessed. It constantly floods.

[Wahrheitssucher]

…where did this paint go? Do you think Germans stripped the paint in late 1944 before the building was demolished to give holocaust deniers some ammo forty years later? Or do you think this paint washed off? Please specify what your theory is.

The gas chambers were blown up, so the heat and force could have destroyed much of the paint, which doesn't sound unreasonable to me. Then there's exposure to the elements and the matter of time, decades.

Your expectation seems to be he [Leuchter in 1988] would have found paint if it had been there 40 years prior, I guffaw at that.

Ha ha!
Q1. Are we talking about “much of the paint” completely vanishing? Or all of it?

Q2. Pressac visited Auschwitz Birkenau ten times between 1979 and 1984. Do you think Pressac not mentioning noticing any sign of paint at all — and that despite analysing the krema during daylight times for five years starting in 1979 — also worthy of a “guffaw”?

Here is a quote from the source you provided:

In order to know, we must imagine for ourselves. We must attempt to imagine the hell that Auschwitz was in the summer of 1944. Let us not invoke the unimaginable.
Let us not shelter ourselves by saying that we cannot, that we could not by any means, imagine it to the very end. We are obliged to that oppressive imaginable. It is a response that we must offer, as a debt to the words and images that certain prisoners snatched, for us, from the harrowing Real of their experience. So let us not invoke the unimaginable. How much harder was it for the prisoners to rip from the camps those few shreds of which now we are trustees, charged with sustaining them simply by looking at them. Those shreds are at the same time more precious and less comforting than all possible works of art, snatched as they were from a world bent on their impossibility. Thus, images in spite of all: in spite of the hell of Auschwitz, in spite of the risks taken. In return, we must contemplate them, take them on, and try to comprehend them. Images in spite of all: in spite of our own inability to look at them as they deserve; in spite of our own world, full, almost choked, with imaginary commodities... It is troubling that a desire to snatch an image should materialize at the most indescribable moment, as it is often characterized, of the massacre of the Jews: the moment when those who assisted, stupefied, had room left for neither thought nor imagination. Time, space, gaze, thought, pathos — everything was obfuscated by the machinelike enormity of the violence produced. In the summer of 1944 came the "tidal wave" of Hungarian Jews: 435,000 of them were deported to Auschwitz between May 15 and July 8.
Jean-Claude Pressac (whose scientific scrupulousness generally avoids any adjectives or any empathetic phrases) wrote that this was the "most demented episode of Birkenau", carried out essentially in crematoria II, III, and V.
In a single day, 24,000 Hungarian Jews were exterminated.
Toward the end of the summer, there was a shortage of Zyklon B. So "the unfit from the convoys were cast directly into the burning pits of crematorium V and of bunker 2", in other words, burned alive.
As for the gypsies, they began to be gassed en masse from August 1.
As usual, the members of the Sonderkommando posted at the crematoria had to prepare the entire infrastructure of this night-mare.
Filip Müller remembers how they proceeded to "overhaul the crematoria":
Cracks in the brickwork of the ovens were filled with a special fireproof clay paste; the cast-iron doors were painted black and the door hinges oiled [..]. New grates were fitted in the generators, while the six chimneys underwent a thorough inspection and repair, as did the electric fans. The walls of the four changing rooms and the eight gas chambers were given a fresh coat of paint. Quite obviously all these efforts were intended to put the places of extermination into peak condition to guarantee smooth and continuous operation."

Q3. Do you think that is a historic description to get at facts impartially, objectively and accurately? Or is it an emotional appeal urging readers to “imagine” in a religious way some form of what religions call “hell”?

Q4. I’m interested in the degree of knowledge and research you are bringing to the discussion. As you are quoting Filip Müller’s testimony as a credible source, can you please specify which are the “eight gas chambers” he mentions. Where are they in relation to the rest of the “crematoria” being described?

[HansHill]

1 - the LLM is equating execution time with exposure time. This absolutely is not the case. For a start, the ventilation shafts in the Kremas were low to the ground. This matters for two reasons: HcN is lighter than air, and the bodies would have collapsed against the shafts preventing an immediate evavuation of the gas. This all points to a far longer exposure time than merely the execution time.

Historical testimony and SS engineering records show forced ventilation was installed exactly to clear gas fast, because SS needed to enter and remove bodies quickly for the next transport. Krema II & III had forced draft fans pulling air through vents to clear Zyklon B gas in about 20–30 minutes total after killing.

The gas chamber walls were not exposed for hours at high HCN levels. The gas was forcibly evacuated soon after the victims died, within minutes, to keep the killing line moving. This is well supported by SS technical correspondence.

This is absolutely not the case, and you are exposing yourself as being unfamiliar with the material again. The Degesch company had designed and implemented purpose built ventilation systems for the express purpose of ventilating a fumigation chamber, for example the one employed at the delousing facility in Dachau. This was a powerful extraction device which could complete 60 air exchanges per hour. If your LLM's sentence were to hold true for Birkenau "ventilation was installed exactly to clear gas fast", then one of these devices must have been utilised. This was not the case.

The ventillation system in the homicidal gas chamber at Birkenau was rated for 9.5 air exchanges per hour. Additionally, the air intake and outlet were located on the same wall as each other, only 2m apart, creating an airflow short-circuit, and an extremely unoptimised ventilation environment. This is more than adequate for a morgue, but disastrous for a homicidal gas chamber.

On this, Rudolf runs two simulations to calculate masonry exposure times, ie the direct exposure time for the walls to inferface with HcN, and the expected hydrogen cyanide concentrations. The two simulations are run at 14 minutes and 70 minutes respectively.

Rudolf ran two simulations at 14-min and 70-min exposure cases to compare. In his simulations, he used equilibrium values which assumed the walls had time to reach steady-state cyanide uptake.

But in the real world, walls do not absorb gas instantly. The Zyklon B outgassing + ventilation created highly non-steady conditions which would make Rudolf's use of equilibrium values improper.

The reaction to make stable iron cyanide (Prussian Blue) is slow, diffusion-limited, and depends on moisture and pH.
So even if local air had residual HCN, the time + surface area + cleaning mean only a fraction ever reacts. That’s why tests found trace cyanide but no deep pigment.

Your LLM is hallucinating. We understand the diffusion properties of building materials very well. Rudolf cites the German Industrial standard DIN 4108 Part 4, which proscribes coefficient values of gaseous diffusion properties (such as resistance) across a range of building materials, example below:



Your LLM is half correct that there will be circumstantial factors, however those factors universally support the acceleration of PB, not impeding it. It even lists two of them, moisture and pH. As per Rudolf, citing the literature:

At least the tendency of humid masonry to absorb higher quantities of hy-
drogen cyanide is confirmed (compare lime sandstone: factor 8 at equal tem-
perature and relative atmospheric humidity, but different prior history). W.A.
Uglow showed in a detailed series of tests that concrete absorbs approximately
four to six times as much hydrogen cyanide as lime mortar. He also found a
tendency of humid building materials towards increased adsorption of hydro-
gen cyanide. He noted moreover a dark pigmentation running through the
entire concrete sample and did not therefore exclude the possibility of a chem-
ical reaction of the hydrogen cyanide with the material (Uglow 1928).

Rudolf, The Chemistry of Auscwitz, Section 6.7.4

The section I have listed above explains the chemistry involved and references the various building material literature as I mentioned, along with the chemistry literature. I will link it here below, and if you choose to not read it out of preference of AI summaries, you are quite unashamedly cutting yourself off from the debate, as the LLM apparently has guardrails against this material:

https://holocausthandbooks.com/book/the ... auschwitz/

From Rudolf:

As a result of the high moisture content of these unheated underground
morgues, one can see that even with such short gassing times, the walls of a
homicidal gas chamber accumulate a hydrogen-cyanide content which would
be quite comparable to that of a disinfestation chamber. Much less hydrogen
cyanide in the quasi-stationary condition of the hypothetical homicidal “gas
chambers” could only be expected, if one were to assume absurdly short and
technically unfeasible gassing times, the application of very small amounts of
Zyklon B, or only very few gassings at all

Chemistry of Auschwitz: Section7.3.2.3. Simulation Calculations

3 - moisture accelerates the formation of PB not impedes it - Green concedes this point.

Moisture helps cyanide penetrate pores, but does not automatically mean high pigment formation. In order to form stable Prussian blue pigmentation, you also need enough free ferrous (Fe²⁺) iron ions exposed and enough time for the iron ion exchange. You also need an alkaline but not overly acidic environment. And the concrete and lime plaster walls do not have enough freely available Fe²⁺. They have some iron impurities but not like brick.

Again your LLM is hallucinating. Fe2+ is absolutely available, although not immediately in the sense your LLM seems to suggest is necessary. Per Rudolf:

For the formation of Iron Blue, therefore, a part of this iron must be re-
duced to the bivalent form (Fe 2+). The subsequent combination of these differ-
ent iron ions with CN– to Iron Blue occurs spontaneously and completely
(Krleza et al. 1977, pp. 7-13). The most probable mechanism is one in
which the cyanide ion itself acts as a reducing agent. The starting point in so
doing is an Fe3+ ion, largely surrounded (complexed) by CN– ions: [Fe(CN)4-6](1-3)- .
A slightly alkaline environment is favorable to the final re-
duction of the iron(III) ion to iron(II).

Germar Rudolf, Chemistry of Auschwitz, section 6.5.1

4 - Washing the walls will only be possible after the full evacuation of the room of a) all the HcN and b) all the bodies. Focusing on b) alone, this would be hours, given that the elevator lift could only support 6 bodies at a time. This time-delay betrays the point, that Prussian Blue was prevented from forming on the walls, and says nothing about the upper walls / ceiling, which as i mentioned before, is where the HcN would tend to accumulate as it is less dense than air.

Removal crews worked while the gas chamber was ventilated. The forced ventilation system was designed to flush out gas quickly enough for Sonderkommando to enter with only gas masks or none at all within ~30 minutes. Practically, the sequence involved gassing (~20–30 min), ventilation with fans on full which cleared the gas in ~20–30 min. The Sonderkommando entered, doors open, roof hatches open which allowed more airflow and the corpses were dragged out continuously. The actual toxic HCN concentration near the walls and ceiling dropped fast — because forced draft + multiple exit points. Ultimately, washing was minor compared to the more decisive chemical constraints: insufficient time, unsuitable substrate, and lower repeated dose.

Re ventilation see above, but I am glad to see your LLM has seemingly dropped the "washing" argument.

[ConfusedJew]

So "fake shower" proves the walls were painted? Really? That's what you are going with?

And where did this paint go? Do you think Germans stripped the paint in late 1944 before the building was demolished to give holocaust deniers some ammo 40 years later? Or do you think this paint washed off? Please specify what your theory is.

There is actually a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that the walls of the gas chambers were painted to make them look like normal showers. Bombsaway provided one compelling example. I am not sure that the paint would necessarily prevent Prussian Blue from forming on the masonry behind the walls though.

[Callafangers]

There is actually a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that the walls of the gas chambers were painted to make them look like normal showers. Bombsaway provided one compelling example. I am not sure that the paint would necessarily prevent Prussian Blue from forming on the masonry behind the walls though.

Wow, there's a "lot of evidence", ConfusedJew? Could you list this "lot", then, just so we can be sure you're not completely making shit up again?

I mean, you said, "a lot", so you must have seen at least some... perhaps you can list just 2-3 items which you consider to be among this "lot"? Because so far, your one witness (the same one as bombsaway) is also known for saying that muscles were cut out of people and that these muscles then caused buckets to jump around, and more: https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... html?p=537

[bombsaway]

Q4. I’m interested in the degree of knowledge and research you are bringing to the discussion. As you are quoting Filip Müller’s testimony as a credible source, can you please specify which are the “eight gas chambers” he mentions. Where are they in relation to the rest of the “crematoria” being described?

the orthodox narrative is that each Krema building contained two gas chambers , one for big groups and one for small. 4 krema buildings x 2 = 8 gas chambers . Ask Gemini if you don't believe me, this is the prevailing view

[ConfusedJew]

Wow, there's a "lot of evidence", ConfusedJew? Could you list this "lot", then, just so we can be sure you're not completely making shit up again?

I mean, you said, "a lot", so you must have seen at least some... perhaps you can list just 2-3 items which you consider to be among this "lot"? Because so far, your one witness (the same one as bombsaway) is also known for saying that muscles were cut out of people and that these muscles then caused buckets to jump around, and more: https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... html?p=537

What is considered a lot of evidence is subjective. In my case, I believe this is a lot. In your case, I expect the bar may be extremely, perhaps impossibly high.

While Rudolf Höss did not specifically mention painting the gas chamber interiors to mimic showers, he did mention the use of dummy shower heads on the ceiling, signs labeling the building as bathhouses/disinfection rooms, and procedures to maintain the illusion (like calm instructions and taking clothes).

These specific details matched other SS and survivor testimonies.

And while actual preserved or excavated physical evidence is limited due to Nazi destruction, some of the collapsed remains of the gas chambers at Auschwitz still show tiled walls and drainage channels typical of shower rooms. Archaeological studies at Treblinka have also found remains consistent with tiled interiors.

This is a sidetrack though and I would like to focus on the forensic chemistry however. I am not sure whether or not tilings would have blocked HCN exposure. I still need to research HansHill's last response and will follow up soon.

[Wahrheitssucher]

Q4. I’m interested in the degree of knowledge and research you are bringing to the discussion. As you are quoting Filip Müller’s testimony as a credible source, can you please specify which are the “eight gas chambers” he mentions. Where are they in relation to the rest of the “crematoria” being described?

the orthodox narrative is that each Krema building contained two gas chambers , one for big groups and one for small. 4 krema buildings x 2 = 8 gas chambers.
Ask Gemini if you don't believe me, this is the prevailing view

I’m not interested in what Gemini says. I’m interested in YOUR understanding of what YOU are posting. YOU posted a report by Filip Müller as if it were sharing a credible, reliable source. So can you show where exactly these alleged “eight gas chambers” he mentions are in relation to the rest of the “crematoria” being described?

[Callafangers]

What is considered a lot of evidence is subjective. In my case, I believe this is a lot. In your case, I expect the bar may be extremely, perhaps impossibly high.

While Rudolf Höss did not specifically mention painting the gas chamber interiors to mimic showers, he did mention the use of dummy shower heads on the ceiling, signs labeling the building as bathhouses/disinfection rooms, and procedures to maintain the illusion (like calm instructions and taking clothes).

These specific details matched other SS and survivor testimonies.

And while actual preserved or excavated physical evidence is limited due to Nazi destruction, some of the collapsed remains of the gas chambers at Auschwitz still show tiled walls and drainage channels typical of shower rooms. Archaeological studies at Treblinka have also found remains consistent with tiled interiors.

This is a sidetrack though and I would like to focus on the forensic chemistry however. I am not sure whether or not tilings would have blocked HCN exposure. I still need to research HansHill's last response and will follow up soon.

Define your criteria for what threshold should be considered "impossibly high". It seems you use these unquantified, unqualified terms as a smokescreen for the fact that you're actually pulling this verdict right out of your ass.

Tiles and drainage at a morgue, ConfusedJew, at places where actual showers were far more common and likely, given sanitation needs? You're saying that this effectively corroborates that which there is zero (0) actual evidence for?

The ruins of the buildings are there, and you admit many features have survived. Yet 100% of the paint is missing, at all locations, across-the-board. Not a chip left in sight. Very interesting. I guess the Nazis failed to destroy all of the incriminating tile and drains yet were exceptional at stripping paint from every corner of every 'chamber', even though its unlikely they would have had conceived of any reason to do so.

As usual, your story does not add up at all. You make connections which are not evidenced in any way and then claim this is "a lot" of evidence, because some Jews and Nazis-at-gunpoint said so post war. ...except that even these witnesses (except the utterly-invalidated Filip Mueller) didn't even start saying this until the forensic evidence starting piling against their claims of Zyklon-B saturating the 'chamber' walls, decades post-war.

Same old, same old.

[ConfusedJew]

The ruins of the buildings are there, and you admit many features have survived. Yet 100% of the paint is missing, at all locations, across-the-board. Not a chip left in sight. Very interesting. I guess the Nazis failed to destroy all of the incriminating tile and drains yet were exceptional at stripping paint from every corner of every 'chamber', even though its unlikely they would have had conceived of any reason to do so.

As usual, your story does not add up at all. You make connections which are not evidenced in any way and then claim this is "a lot" of evidence, because some Jews and Nazis-at-gunpoint said so post war. ...except that even these witnesses (except the utterly-invalidated Filip Mueller) didn't even start saying this until the forensic evidence starting piling against their claims of Zyklon-B saturating the 'chamber' walls, decades post-war.

Same old, same old.

Most of the chambers were destroyed. I'm not sure if 100% of the paint is missing but the tiling is not. It's not even the point of this debate though.

If you are going to completely disregard 100% of the survivor and Nazi testimonies, I would say that's a completely unrealistic standard to go by. Do you think there is any validity in any of the witness testimonies? There were thousands that were recorded.

[Callafangers]

Most of the chambers were destroyed. I'm not sure if 100% of the paint is missing but the tiling is not. It's not even the point of this debate though.

If you are going to completely disregard 100% of the survivor and Nazi testimonies, I would say that's a completely unrealistic standard to go by. Do you think there is any validity in any of the witness testimonies? There were thousands that were recorded.

No, ConfusedJew, you do not get to invent the application of paint which is totally and utterly without evidence of any kind. Others have mentioned Pressac's multiple visits to these 'chambers', where he mentions nothing resembling paint. Leuchter (and/or Faurrison) said the same:

In all the author's investigations in Poland, Germany and Austria, hardware or
construction remarkable to gas chambers has never been found. There are no forty
(40) foot stacks, no ventilators, no gas generators, no intake air preheaters, no special
paint or sealants on walls, floors or ceilings, no safety devices for the operators, and
no coherent design consistently utilized throughout the alleged gas chambers.

https://archive.org/stream/rapport1e_20 ... e_djvu.txt

Rudolf said the same, Markiewicz mentions no paint, nor does Green. Nobody saw, measured, nor reported any paint of any kind. And speaking of Green, here is what he says regarding the application of paint in delousing chambers (responding to another anti-revisionist critic, Bailer):

If paint was indeed used on these facilities, it should be possible to find evidence that such paint was purchased and applied. The paint hypothesis needs more evidence to support it, if it is to be believed.

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-his ... stry/blue/

Indeed, when and where paint is alleged to have been applied, there needs to be evidence to support this. You have none, so you just keep insisting that it was the case, absent any evidence supporting your case. Your sole contemporary witness to this claim thus far is Filip Mueller, who also says:

- "...the 2 pits were 40 to 50 meters long, about 8 meters wide and meters deep....by digging a channel which sloped slightly to either side from the center point it would possible to catch the fat exuding from the corpses as they were burning in the pit, in 2 collecting pans at either end of the channel.."
*** a lie, the fat would burn immediately, no evidence for pits as alleged

- "...the sizzling fat was scooped out with buckets on a long curved rod and poured over the pit causing flames to leap up amid much crackling and hissing"
*** a lie, see above

- "the powers that be had allocated twenty minutes for the cremation of 3 corpses...."
*** a lie, impossible to cremate 3 bodies in 20 minutes

- "The doctors proceeded to cut pieces of still warm flesh from thighs & calves and threw them into waiting receptacles. The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and contracting, making the bucket jump about"
*** a laughable lie, no explanation necessary

- Mueller claimed 10,000 were cremated daily in the ovens of Birkenau
*** a lie, utterly impossible given the number of operating crematorium and the time lengths alleged

- "I noticed there were some small greenish-blue crystals lying on the concrete floor at the back of the room. They were scattered beneath an opening in the ceiling. A large fan was installed up there, its blades humming as they revolved."
*** a lie, there is no evidence for "greenish-blue crystals", and the cyanide (Zyklon-B) story, while completely debunked by Revisionists, claims that the gassing agent was dropped into 4 cage like wire mesh structures...no fans, they can't even keep their lies straight

https://archive.codohforum.com/20230609 ... cfbc0.html

This is laughable nonsense. Mueller was an extraordinary liar who mixed his lies with elements of truth in an effort to fool the masses into buying into the laughable -- frankly stupid -- 'Holocaust' tale. It is a disgraceful and disgusting lie that only the sickest minds would ever permit or promote the perpetuation of.

You have found no paint -- not one gram of it -- on any alleged 'chambers'. No one has. It defies belief that every corner of the chambers was painted (in hundreds of layers, no less, as post-Rudolf witnesses, e.g. Bennahmias, claim painting after each gassing), and that 100% of this paint has mysteriously vaporized despite many areas being sheltered from the elements over time (and these areas being precisely where wall/ceiling samples were taken from). It defies belief that this paint should even necessarily reduce the reaction producing Iron Blue by some >99.9%, which is what would be necessary for the samples universally reflecting such minuscule FeCN levels, totally misaligned with the claim of millions 'gassed'.

You're so far from having a compelling position here that you must keep reiterating vague, unquantified statements about "a lot" of evidence which you do not have.

There was no paint, there are no incriminating levels of FeCN, and your 'Holocaust' is fake, stupid, and definitely did not happen. To those who still believe it: grow up. To those lying about it consciously: may you burn in hell.

[bombsaway]

You have found no paint -- not one gram of it -- on any alleged 'chambers'. No one has.

But ... nobody has looked. You guys have no direct evidence of actual resettlement, nor of any of the conspiracies you believe in, and you have certainly looked extensively. Clear double standard here.