Archaeological Evidence of Mass Graves at Treblinka II

[Stubble]

Willienberg in the documentary about the Archaeology of Treblinka where Caroline works, in a space measuring 200 meters wide by 300 meters long, 875 thousand bodies fit. To know the depth for this, the AI ​​returned that a one meters would be needed.

Irrelevant, that's 6 hectares.

[joshk246]

Another point, and a more pressing one, is what the purported grave space is vs what it isn't.

The area of disturbed ground, assuming it contains human remains (I'm sure at least some of the pits do) indeed constitute mass graves.

The dishonest framing is what gets me. It is either almost 1,000,000 dead bodies, or none according to Nessie here...

There is no middle ground.

For example, I do think people were executed at Treblinka II. Partisans, or at the very least people accused of being partisans. Tens of thousands of them.

I don't buy 1,000,000 jews gassed in makeshift gas chambers in an extermination campaign. In my opinion, the evidence doesn't support that.

A piece of tile a gas chamber does not make. The grave space, while certainly adequate to be called 'mass graves' falls well short of the orthodox claim.

Instead of just stretching a finger and pointing and saying, here, here are the bodies. Instead, apparently, the burden of proof is shifted and now it is my job to explain why you can't shove 1,000,000 pounds in a 5 lb. bag and why you can't just make up places where the mass graves were and put them willie nillie out by the fence....

/shrug

Any excuse will do I suppose.

For example, I do think people were executed at Treblinka II. Partisans, or at the very least people accused of being partisans. Tens of thousands of them.

How did you come to this belief Stubble? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as to what made you believe this.

I don't think any revisionist will deny that Jews would have most likely died for numerous reasons:
- Disease(typhus, etc)
- Isolated incidents with guards for numerous reasons(i.e escaping, sabotage, etc)
- Dying whilst in transit toward Treblinka

All of these circumstances could mean that thousands/tens of thousands could have perished at Treblinka I and Treblinka II, but, like Stubble said- The dishonest framing is what gets me. It is either almost 1,000,000 dead bodies, or none according to affirmers.

[Stubble]

Hitler said it.

I'll go grab source.

I'm having trouble sourcing the quote. The mayor of Lublin asked Hitler directly on a visit about rumors of executions in the camps, Hitler told him there were executions, of partisans.

I will keep digging for the quote.

[Nessie]

....
Yes, I know what is claimed.
All the preposterous outdoor cremation nonsense.

[quote=joshk246 post_id=11918 time=<a href="tel:1751817266">1751817266</a> user_id=167]
....
Yes, I know what is claimed.
All the preposterous outdoor cremation nonsense.

Just because so-called revisionists cannot believe pyres were possible, because of their calculations about the wood needed, does not evidence there were no mass graves.

Roughly how much dry wood(kg) do you need to cremate a corpse, Nessie?

No one has been able to calculate, to a generally agreed amount, how much was needed for the AR camp pyres. Witness evidence suggests it was far less than it took to individually cremate a clothed, newly deceased corpse to ashes. The pyres were of partially decomposed corpses, no clothing and it was not a complete cremation, as the graves contained larger, identifiable bones.

So-called revisionists do a lot of guessing, with the intention of not being able to work out the amounts, to their satisfaction, and then they illogically claim, therefore there were no mass cremations.

[Nessie]

...

The mass graves rely on the cremation fairytale being true.
No cremations = No mass graves.

I’ll concede it’s a slight diversion off topic, this thread has become very repetitive.

That is wrong. The mass graves are separate from cremations. The Nazis could have gone straight to cremation, without burying anyone, hence no mass graves. Since eyewitnesses state there were mass graves, then investigation is needed to establish if their claim is true. That investigation is achieved with archaeological and geophysical evidence gathering, something that only one revisionist has ever tried to do. The rest just try to argue that the evidence for mass graves is somehow flawed.

[Nessie]

The Staff in the area would know nothing about Katyn. Bombs do explode but are not really explosives as you mention.

Wiernik stated Katyn was the reason why the Nazis started to exhume and cremate corpses.

I'm going to drop a rather hot take here based on the use of pyres by the German Authorities during ww2.

These outdoor burnings were hygienic in nature and stemmed from a very real need to prevent groundwater contamination. It also controlled odor and any pestilence that could have resulted from the rotting of corpses.

There are extant photographs of these pyres and fuel is minimal. Look at the Dresden pyre photographs for example. This is because the goal was desiccation of the corpses, not destruction. When you look at the Kola study for example, this is borne out by the evidence. Not even destruction of hair was complete, what's less tissue.

I suspect that after the groundwater contamination at Auschwitz from the mass grave there (a result of a typhus outbreak and lack of cremation capacity), a general order was issued by the German Authorities to exhume the grave space at the transit camps and desiccate the bodies, then to bury them again.

If the goal had been destruction, to cover evidence, Kola would have drawn up ash and sand only in his sampling apparatus, not teeth, soft tissue, hair etc.

If Aktion 1005 was the complete obliteration of the remains of an extermination program, then, as evidenced by Kola, it was an absolute failure.

Long and short of it, however many bodies were buried at Treblinka II, are, more or less, still buried at Treblinka II. Except for bodies removed by the Soviet after bombing or by the Polish Authorities.

It is an odd take, that Aktion 1005 was to obliterate the remains. They cannot magically disappear, leaving undisturbed ground. The best the Nazis could do, was enough destruction of the corpses, to prevent identification, body count and establishing the cause of death. They were successful. No corpse has ever been identified, a cause of death established and a body count is impossible. The Nazi success was such, that Holocaust denial is a thing. If it had been possible to count c850,000 corpses at TII, with a survey such as was completed at Katyn, no one would deny mass murder took place at the camp.

[Stubble]

Nessie, you are a silly, silly person sometimes. Never change, deal?

For posterity;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderaktion_1005

The goal of the project was to hide or destroy any evidence of the mass murder that had taken place under Operation Reinhard

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/aktion-1005

Aktion 1005, also called Sonderaktion 1005 or Enterdungsaktion (“Exhumation action”), was an operation conducted by the Nazis during World War II, the aim of which was to hide traces of the widespread system of extermination and other places of mass murder that took place under the auspices of Aktion Reinhard.

https://academic.oup.com/hgs/article-ab ... ogin=false

Operation 1005 was instituted by the Nazis to wipe out the traces of the mass murders they had perpetrated in Eastern and Central Europe

Also, are there no bodies anywhere because of Aktion 1005? Or in places where we don't find grave contents consistent with Kola, should we assume there was no mass burial?

Which is it buddy?

Of all the things you could have chosen to say, you chose to plant your flag on 'well, actually Aktion 1005 was just to keep people from identifying bodies, not finding them'.

If that's truly the case Nessie, can you point to where bodies have been found?

You are also going against your buddy Warnick, who goes so far as to say that teeth were broken on sheet metal to explain the lack of, well, millions of teeth, anywhere.

[Nessie]

Nessie, you are a silly, silly person sometimes. Never change, deal?

For posterity;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderaktion_1005

The goal of the project was to hide or destroy any evidence of the mass murder that had taken place under Operation Reinhard

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/aktion-1005

Aktion 1005, also called Sonderaktion 1005 or Enterdungsaktion (“Exhumation action”), was an operation conducted by the Nazis during World War II, the aim of which was to hide traces of the widespread system of extermination and other places of mass murder that took place under the auspices of Aktion Reinhard.

https://academic.oup.com/hgs/article-ab ... ogin=false

Operation 1005 was instituted by the Nazis to wipe out the traces of the mass murders they had perpetrated in Eastern and Central Europe

Those are quotes from people who are not forensically aware. You cannot wipe out, hide or destroy a mass grave. It is not possible to return disturbed ground to how it was, before it was excavated. It is not possible to hide corpses that remain at the place where they were initially buried.

What the Nazis did, was prevent body counts, identification and establishing the cause of death, by exhuming and cremating the corpses.

Also, are there no bodies anywhere because of Aktion 1005?

No, Aktion 1005 was the alteration of the state of the corpses, from whole, which could possibly be counted, post mortemed and maybe even identified, to where none of that could happen.

Or in places where we don't find grave contents consistent with Kola, should we assume there was no mass burial?

Don't assume anything. If the evidence is of undisturbed ground, that has never been dug into, that is evidence to prove no mass graves. You don't have evidence like that.

Which is it buddy?

Of all the things you could have chosen to say, you chose to plant your flag on 'well, actually Aktion 1005 was just to keep people from identifying bodies, not finding them'.

It was not just to prevent identification. I think the most important part of the action, for the Nazis, was to prevent a body count.

If that's truly the case Nessie, can you point to where bodies have been found?

The 1945 and 2011 surveys found cremated remains and pits in the section of the camp where eyewitnesses state the main mass graves were located.

You are also going against your buddy Warnick, who goes so far as to say that teeth were broken on sheet metal to explain the lack of, well, millions of teeth, anywhere.

No, the evidence is that the Nazis did as much as possible to destroy the corpses, for the reasons I have given.