The 6,000,000 number, a fable?

[Stubble]

Another one is this thread is 'it was the population of jews in Poland'.

Fact check; it wasn't.

No it was the rough population of Jews in Eastern Europe, where they faced the most persecution. 5 or 6 million, which is why you see 5 just as often.

Just throw a dart and then paint a fucking target...

That's so chickenshit and ridiculous...

the 6,000,000 is reasonable as an estimate because if you add all of these jews together,
you can get the number, assuming you don't add too many of them and you ignore cohorts of jews that push the number too high.

If you count 6,000,000 jews than it's totally reasonable to estimate 6,000,000 died...

[bombsaway]

Another one is this thread is 'it was the population of jews in Poland'.

Fact check; it wasn't.

No it was the rough population of Jews in Eastern Europe, where they faced the most persecution. 5 or 6 million, which is why you see 5 just as often.

Just throw a dart and then paint a fucking target...

That's so chickenshit and ridiculous...

the 6,000,000 is reasonable as an estimate because if you add all of these jews together,
you can get the number, assuming you don't add too many of them and you ignore cohorts of jews that push the number too high.

If you count 6,000,000 jews than it's totally reasonable to estimate 6,000,000 died...

Most of those articles state that those Jews were gathered in the east, so they identify that geographic area already.

[Stubble]

No it was the rough population of Jews in Eastern Europe, where they faced the most persecution. 5 or 6 million, which is why you see 5 just as often.

Just throw a dart and then paint a fucking target...

That's so chickenshit and ridiculous...

the 6,000,000 is reasonable as an estimate because if you add all of these jews together,
you can get the number, assuming you don't add too many of them and you ignore cohorts of jews that push the number too high.

If you count 6,000,000 jews than it's totally reasonable to estimate 6,000,000 died...

Most of those articles state that those Jews were gathered in the east, so they identify that geographic area already.

Mr Check, this is an ernest question, why do you find the 'in excess of 5,000,000' tallies credible? I don't personally trust the extrapolations because I feel the base data is flawed and I don't feel that anyone has properly accounted for emigration and evacuation by the Soviet. I favor Sanning of course, but, I'm open to correction here. Perhaps we can hash this out, if you have the time.

TL;DR

Where do you get your numbers for Soviet evacuation of jews and what are some good sources for looking into this particular facet of ww2? Where do you get your primary datasets? What method is used to account for emigration?

For posterity;

While originally directed at SanityCheck, I'll ask you, where do you get these numbers? What orifice from which do you pull your numbers Bombsaway?

[bombsaway]

While originally directed at SanityCheck, I'll ask you, where do you get these numbers? What orifice from which do you pull your numbers Bombsaway?

You are as daft as a brick , literally every source will confirm these numbers, and I've told you about the pale of settlement before.

The Pale covered an area of about 386,100 sq. mi. from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. According to the census of 1897, 4,899,300 Jews lived there, forming 94% of the total Jewish population of Russia and c. 11.6% of the general population of this area.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... settlement

[Stubble]

While originally directed at SanityCheck, I'll ask you, where do you get these numbers? What orifice from which do you pull your numbers Bombsaway?

You are as daft as a brick , literally every source will confirm these numbers, and I've told you about the pale of settlement before.

The Pale covered an area of about 386,100 sq. mi. from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. According to the census of 1897, 4,899,300 Jews lived there, forming 94% of the total Jewish population of Russia and c. 11.6% of the general population of this area.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... settlement

Excuse the pun, your answer is beyond the pale.

Did you even read the question?

Good lord Bombsaway, and you called me daft.

[bombsaway]

While originally directed at SanityCheck, I'll ask you, where do you get these numbers? What orifice from which do you pull your numbers Bombsaway?

You are as daft as a brick , literally every source will confirm these numbers, and I've told you about the pale of settlement before.

The Pale covered an area of about 386,100 sq. mi. from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. According to the census of 1897, 4,899,300 Jews lived there, forming 94% of the total Jewish population of Russia and c. 11.6% of the general population of this area.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/th ... settlement

Excuse the pun, your answer is beyond the pale.

Did you even read the question?

Good lord Bombsaway, and you called me daft.

The numbers that I gave you (and our discussion) pertained to the population of Jews in Eastern Europe pre-war which was between 5-6 million.

So I guess you asked a question about something totally separate?

Sanning's numbers are contradicted by third recih documents, so IDK you should educate yourself on those documents, like the Korherr report etc

[Stubble]

After going over The Korherr Report a half a dozen times, looking at it from a myriad of different ways and pondering the document, I'm left puzzled Bombsaway.

1) how does this document not align with Sanning

2) how do you get a death toll in excess of 5,000,000 with this report as a springboard?

I've got to admit, I've been puzzling over the adoption of this 'orphan' document by exterminationists on this board for a while.

I suppose I should put those questions in another thread however, as this seems to be drifting from the topic.

[bombsaway]

Sanning:

Sanning : 857,000 Jews in in German occupied Poland after the area was divided - pg 44 https://dn790006.ca.archive.org/0/items ... 14-047.pdf

Korherr: 1 449 692 transported into the "Russian east" from the GG and Warthegau, with hundreds of thousands remaining in Poland.

Sanning doesn't even mention Korherr in his book which means he either is a charlatan, deluded himself into thinking it wasn't even worth a mention, or is historically illiterate.

One mistake among many, though this is alone is so blatant it should permanently discredit him as a serious scholar IMO.

[Nessie]

...

Just throw a dart and then paint a fucking target...

That's so chickenshit and ridiculous...

....

The 5-6 million, or approximately 6 million death toll, depending on the source, is within the overall population of Jews who fell under Nazi control, were arrested and sent to camps and ghettos. So, yes, throw a dart within the overall arrested population and draw a target around what the death toll was.

Holocaust so-called revisionists are the most obsessive about the 6 million figure, as they look to support their conspiratorial beliefs.

[HansHill]

I am just realizing that your Arlen, Texas location is a reference to your Hank Hill character. I'm slow. Ha.

The above is a clash between the Holocaust mainstream and online anti-revisionists. There are a lot of these! In the Holocaust mainstream, they use the six million and quote all the silliest stories without any shame whatsoever. They don't care if it makes sense because they know they will never be challenged on any of it (except by revisionists who are marginalized). But since anti-revisionists do engage with us, what you see is that they don't want to defend the six million so you end up with these mildly revisionist hot takes.

Absolutely - I remember Mike Enoch Peinovich having this out with Matt Cockerill - Peinovich makes the very credible point that, the Holocaust is six million gassed to most people. Cockeril had previously gotten flustered about the technicalities with a different interlocutor (not Peinovich) and ended the discussion over it. What was obvious is that Cockerill had very little patience or tolerance for the idea of 99% of people getting basic "facts" about the Holocaust wrong. Peinovich of course was more clever, and knew exactly to pounce on this idea of nobody having a clue about what the hell even supposedly happened at the basic level.

Peinovich also makes the very astute remark that any "debate" between a Revisionist and Holocaust-Affirmer usually takes the form of the Revisionist having to teach the Affirmer what they themselves are supposed to be believing.

[Nessie]

I don't think I ever said 5 million was the dominant figure, or there was a special significance to it. The google search turned more hits for 5 million, but it's hard to draw conclusions from this though it isn't what we would expect assuming mystical/psychological significance to 6 million. You are drawing conclusions without proper neutrality, explaining what is going on mechanistically.

The reason figures were often around 5-6 million in the pre-war period and during the war, when talking about Jewish suffering was that this was the approximate amount of Jews that fell under Nazi control, and before that, the amount of Jews in Eastern Europe + Poland where anti semitism was strongest

You are conflating the question of mystical interpretation with the larger issue of the figure being used prematurely. You cannot explain the latter and you are avoiding confronting that difficulty in favor of numerological questions. Let's set aside momentarily the question of whether the 6 million had any special significance. That can be investigated separately. Even if it were the case that the number simply caught on randomly, we still have the fact that it was used too early.

Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl (the man behind the Vrba-Wetzler report), May 1944

“Till now six times a million Jews have Europe and Russia have been destroyed.” (Dawidowicz, Holocaust Reader, pg. 327)

“And you, our brothers in all free countries; and you, governments of all free lands, where are you? What are you doing to hinder the carnage that is now going on? Already 6,000,000 Jews have been massacred and this number is increasing by ten thousands every day.” (WRB Archives, material sent with Vrba-Wetzler material)

Now. Bombsaway. This guy is on record multiple times in May 1944 saying that six million Jews HAD died. Past tense. With earlier examples that say X million Jews in peril or whatever you can maybe wriggle out of it by saying it's generic and not that relevant. But do you honestly not see the problem here? Do you really not see why it's a problem for them to be using the number in the middle of the war?

And this is not an isolated example. Joel Brand was also using the number in June 1944. Below is from his interview with Moshe Shertok.

“Similarly, the Nazis believed that by offering to release the remaining 2,000,000 Jews, they might get away with the killing of 6,000,000.”

“Please believe me: they have killed six million Jews; there are only two million left alive.”

Ilya Ehrenberg, 22 Dec 1944 (Soviet War News)
“In regions they seized, the Germans killed all the Jews, from the old folk to infants in arms. Ask any German prisoner why his fellow countrymen annihilated six million innocent people, and he will reply quite simply: ‘Why, they were Jews.’”

So that is at least three different very notable people saying in 1944 that six million Jews had already died. And fairly recently there was a discovery of an example from January 1944 of a rabbi saying in a newspaper article that six million had died. That is the earliest past tense example that I am aware of.

In January 1945, Jacob Lestchinsky published an estimate that six million Jews had died. This might be the earliest that had any purported statistical basis. Need I again state the obvious and say that this is too early for any reliable statistics to have been calculated?
“6,000,000 Jews Dead: Jacob Lestchinsky Estimates Reduction in Europe Since ‘39,” NYT, 8 Jan 1945, pg. 17

Jacob Robinson, June 1945, meeting with Justice Jackson

How great were those losses? inquired Jackson, seeking a figure to use at the coming trial. 'Six million,' responded Dr Robinson, and indicated that the figure included Jews in all Nazi-occupied lands 'from the Channel to Stalingrad.'

Jackson noted that day:

I was particularly interested in knowing the source and reliability of his estimate as I know no authentic data on it. (David Irving, Nuremberg: The Last Battle, pg. 62)

Sydney Gruson, reports from Zionists in London, Aug/Sep 1945. These example are also pre-Nuremberg and they show that the number was well-established in British circles as well.

About 1,500,000 Jews are left in Europe outside the Soviet Union. Six million have perished at the hands of the Nazis. Palestine is the only hope for the ones who are left, the Zionists declare, and they must be given the chance to go without delay. "It cannot be expected, Dr. Weizmann said, "that a people should look with equanimity on the agony of their brothers who survived so fearful a holocaust. (NYT, 4 Aug 1945)

Loss of six million Jews during the war has made extremists of all Zionists in the sense that they do not believe that there can be any more delay in establishing a Jewish homeland, and that their demands are considerate in proportion to Jewry's sacrifices in the war and its contribution to the United Nations' war effort. (NYT, 2 Sep 1945)

The only honest argument that can be made here is that these people were guesstimating and coincidentally got the "correct" answer.

Yes, they did guestimate and based on the evidence already circulating about the number of deaths by 1944, the guestimation was likely to be accurate. There may also be the repeated use of the same figure, from the first source. If the first source is trusted, then others will repeat it.

In June 1942, it was already being guestimated that 1 million were dead;

https://www.nytimes.com/1942/06/30/arch ... nrope.html

To get to 6 million by 1944, is not unreasonable.