Does Anyone Have Information About This Single Frame From Dresden?

[Stubble]

I request that the last couple comments be split into a dedicated research thread as I feel the questions and material presented merit a stand alone thread, in an effort to generate more traction for research.

[Wetzelrad]

Maybe Inferno Dresden.

Yes, Police Colonel Wolfgang Thierig's report is in Walter Weidauer's Inferno Dresden. I found it on p.230:
https://ulis-buecherecke.ch/pdf_bericht ... n_1966.pdf

Here is the essential passage everyone quotes for the estimated death toll. From pp.244-245, translated:

E. Personal injuries: Ascertained early on, up to March 10, 1945: 18,375 killed in action, 2,212 seriously wounded, 13,718 slightly wounded. 350,000 homeless and those in long-term dislocation. A breakdown of personal injuries by gender, taking into account existing difficulties (emigration of large parts of the population, transfer of a large proportion of the wounded to other areas, complete charring or severe decomposition of the bodies), is not yet possible or even impossible. However, the majority are women and children. According to the Criminal Investigation Department, it has been possible to identify about 50% of the victims over time. According to current findings, the majority are women.

Some of the casualties in the LS rooms and outside died due to direct or indirect fire exposure and burial. High casualties also occurred due to the dropping of mines and high-explosive bombs, particularly during the second night raid on streets, squares, and green spaces. Based on previous experience and findings during the recovery effort, the total number of casualties, including foreigners, is now estimated at approximately 25,000. Several thousand more casualties are likely buried under the rubble, especially in the city center, and cannot be recovered at all for the time being. An exact determination of the number of casualties will only be possible once the missing persons records and the police registration offices have established which individuals left Dresden. The missing persons records and the city administration currently have approximately 35,000 missing persons reports. Approximately 100 Wehrmacht personnel have been identified among the casualties so far. Reports of this have not yet been received from the Wehrmacht offices or barracks. The number of Wehrmacht members killed in action will be relatively low due to the curfew.

Clearly Thierig's 25,000 was not meant to be a maximum but a safe extrapolation from the 18,375 they had been able to count by that date. The chaos of resettlement, the number of reported missing, and the destruction of bodies by fire could render a much higher total. And yet, Wikipedia gives the death toll for this event as "up to 25,000", even while citing higher estimates from historians. The bias never ends.

Thierig describes the Altmarkt cremations at the end of his report, on pp.247-248:

H. Special Incidents:
I. The recovery of the fallen, even those not buried, had to be carried out by the forces of the local LS leader, as well as the transfer to the cemeteries. Due to the rapid decomposition and the existing extraordinary difficulties in recovery, as well as the lack of suitable vehicles for transport to cemeteries, a total of 6,865 fallen were cremated on the Altmarkt with the approval of the Gauleiter and the city administration. The ashes of the fallen were transferred to a cemetery. The recovery of abandoned air raid shelters and travel luggage, including valuables, is also carried out by the local air raid shelter manager.
2. Looters: 79 looters have been arrested so far by the police, especially by patrols. A larger number have already been executed. The above report will be submitted after the documents have been reviewed by the district leadership of the NSDAP.

Signed: T h i e r i g

So we weren't missing any details from this document. All the relevant quotes were already out there. Unfortunate that more wasn't written.

[Wetzelrad]

What substantive questions regarding the Dresden pyres are currently outstanding?

I've grown tired of looking over the photos, but here are some more minor questions that could lead to useful conclusions:
1) How many pyres were there, simultaneously?
2) Was the pyre actually moved around? Do the photos show it in different locations?
3) Were all the photos taken at one time or not?
4) Can it be determined from a comparison of photos whether the piles of ash rose or fell over time?
5) Can it be determined from a comparison of photos if the fuelwood was replaced?
6) How long did the pyre actually take to burn?
7) What other sources did Irving use to inform his descriptions of this event?

[pilgrimofdark]

Yes, Police Colonel Wolfgang Thierig's report is in Walter Weidauer's Inferno Dresden.

That's helpful. I got the name Zeppenfeld from it, then tracked that to the actual Dresden city archives.

On page 381 of Dresden im Luftkrieg is an aerial photo of the mass grave areas at the Heidefriedhof cemetery.

Spoiler

The Heidefriedhof Cemetery on the Autobahn in the north outside of Dresden. Most of the air war victims were buried here. The mass graves appear as bright spots.

Overlaying that with Google Maps, I get about 65,000-70,000 square meters of total area. A little more or less depending on how restrictive you want to be.

Spoiler

The memorial at the cemetery states there are about 11,500 bodies in mass graves, plus the 6,865 in the ash grave.

A hectare is 10,000 square meters, so we're at around 7 hectares for 18,365 bodies.

Treblinka is claimed to be 2 hectares for 800,000 to 3 million bodies?

For most of the other questions, I can't think of a source other than contacting the Heidefriedhof and Irving's website, or searching the Dresden City or Saxon State Archives.

[Wetzelrad]

Overlaying that with Google Maps, I get about 65,000-70,000 square meters of total area. A little more or less depending on how restrictive you want to be.

That's a good technique. Here are some more aerial photos if anyone wants to look at them. The first one is the best of the series.

Sortie 37PRS-204, Exposure LSV-3125 https://catalog.archives.gov/id/242803545
Sortie 37PRS-204, Exposure LSV-3126 https://catalog.archives.gov/id/242803547
Sortie 37PRS-204, Exposure LSV-3124 https://catalog.archives.gov/id/242803543
Sortie 37PRS-204, Exposure VV-5038 https://catalog.archives.gov/id/292921442
Sortie 37PRS-204, Exposure VV-5039 https://catalog.archives.gov/id/242804023
Sortie 37PRS-204, Exposure VV-5047 https://catalog.archives.gov/id/242804039

All photos from March 25. Without an earlier photo to compare against, it's not easy to draw conclusions about grave space or the number of people buried. I would need more info to draw conclusions like that.

[pilgrimofdark]

The Heidefriedhof Dresden Learning Center has some early photos of the mass burial sites.

Spoiler

Spoiler

There's also a PDF flyer linked at the bottom of the page with a map and key of the memorial site.

I still get around 65,000 square meters, making sure to remove the area of the Buddhist cemetery. That encompasses all the space, so is more than the total grave space. Each individual mass grave indicated might need to be measured.

However, if the depth is a standard 2 meters, it roughly corresponds to the cubic meters claimed for Treblinka (20,000 square meters x 7 meter depth max versus Dresden's 65,000 square meters x 2 meter depth).

In terms of remains, the sign at the memorial indicates 11,500 in the row graves and 6,865 in the ash grave.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/BQqnSFErxpkZYF1M6

[Wetzelrad]

The website describes the method of burial like this:

A file clerk from the burial crew recorded the information before the bodies were stacked in the trenches – without coffins, lying on their sides, and as close together as possible. After filling, each grave was marked with a narrow wooden strip bearing the deceased's registration number.

And as you say, they were "row graves". So while the bodies were laid "as close together as possible", they were still sufficiently separate to put down gravemarkers for each one. We see that in one of the photos. I don't think this is very comparable to the story of Treblinka. Maybe as a sanity check.

The aerial photos show that large sections of woods around this area had been deforested, but none of these are mentioned in the text or marked on the map, so they are not mass graves. If I only count the white rectangle, the approximate rectangle where the mass graves are supposed to be, including walking paths, I get ~6,400 square meters.

If I take the map from their PDF file and strictly count only the area of the graves marked 1 and 2, by using a color histogram, I get ~8,900 square meters. This number is probably more accurate since the aerial photo is rough and obscured by trees. I think this sounds right for the 11,500 bodies.

As for the ash grave, marked on the map in the PDF as number 3, it is about as small as reported by Irving. Where Irving estimated it at 25 x 16 ft, I estimate it at 32 x 15 ft. As Leif touched on in the debate thread, this would barely be enough space for the ashes of 6,865 people. If we assume a grave depth of 6 ft and we use the rates given by Callafangers:

25 ft x 16 ft x 6 ft = ~68 cubic meters of space.
6,865 bodies x 0.008 cubic meters ash per body = ~54 cubic meters of human ash.
6,865 bodies x 0.078 cubic meters wood ash per body = ~535 cubic meters of wood ash.

So much material put into such a small space would make a sizable mound. For the sake of argument, let's try maximizing the grave space. My largest estimate of the area came from using a color histogram, at 66 square meters. If we assume a depth of 2 meters:

66 square meters x 2 meters depth = ~132 cubic meters of space.

There is still a big discrepancy. I have to suppose that a substantial part of the ash was removed in some way that was undocumented. Perhaps much of it was lost to wind and rain, or it blew off the top of the trucks, or it was trucked away to multiple locations. If not that, something else in the assumptions has to be fixed. Perhaps the pit is deeper than I assume, or the pit's dimensions were reduced after the war.