The case against gassing compared to shooting.

[Keen]

FWIW+1 - your "approach" to the NQ (Nessie Question) has been a disaster.

[Keen]

I have Keen on ignore, so I only see a post if quoted. He is lying that I do not accept the burden of proof. He has been shown the evidence that proves mass graves. His denial of and refusal to accept that evidence, does not mean therefore I have not met the burden of proof.

To prove there are no mass graves at the AR camps, would again require witnesses who worked there to deny their existence and geophysics to prove undisturbed ground.

Logical fallacy.

Nesserto:

The physical evidence does exist

Nesserto:

A Holocaust revisionist would produce evidence to prove the physical evidence is not there, such as geophysical surveys showing no disturbed ground, or eyewitnesses from the camp who say no mass graves were dug, or aerial photos showing the ground had never been dug into.

Logical fallacy.

[Keen]

Nesserto:

The physical evidence does exist

A - $100.00 reward - is being offered for each one of the 21 alleged “scientifically proven” mass graves / cremation pits in question within the boundary of Treblinka II that is proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U. S. civil courts - to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of - at least 2 people. (That is less than one tenth of one one thousandth of one percent of the alleged mass murder.)

Note: The 6 original fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka II that were alleged by “authoritative eyewitnesses” and allegedly - “PROVEN” - to exist in the early show trials - MODEL - MAP - (but never proven to exist), are also included in the above reward offer. (A photo of one of these 6 fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” can be seen - HERE.)

Here are 13 of the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels as "possible grave sites"):



And here are 12 of the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels as "probable burial / cremation pits"):



And here are the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels in various ways):



And here is how Colls' numbers correspond to - THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX CHALLENGE
( http://thisisaboutscience.com/ ) numbering system:

CSC G50 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #1/86

CSC G54 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #2/87

CSC G53 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #3/88

CSC G52 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #4/89

CSC G51 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #5/90

CSC F1 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #6/91

CSC G44 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #7/92

CSC G1 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #8/93

CSC G4 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #9/94

CSC G38 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #10/95

CSC F16 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #11/96

NOTE: This is a photo of fraudulently alleged "huge mass grave" F16:

https://i.postimg.cc/vT4MG5d5/Treblinka-F16.jpg

CSC F9 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #12/97

CSC G29 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #13/98

CSC G32 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #14/99

CSC G36 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #15/100

As well, there are the 6 additional fraudulently alleged "eyewitness" - "huge mass graves:"

The Wiernik model (Starting from upper left to right: *1A/*101, *2A/*102, *3A/*103, *4A/*104, *5A/*105, *6A/*106):

https://web.archive.org/web/20110210205 ... age001.jpg

And the Stangl trial map (Starting from upper left to right: *1B/*101, *2B/*102, *3B/*103, *4B/*104, *5B/*105, *6B/*106):

https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/wp-content/u ... apa-22.jpg

*NOTE: this is a photo of one of the 6 fraudulently alleged "eyewitness" - "huge mass graves:"

https://i.postimg.cc/65zjGzLY/Monumentmassgrave-TII.jpg
[/quote]

[Keen]

Nesserto:

My standard of proof is the same as historians or the courts use, whereby an event is proven when there is sufficient corroborating verified evidence to prove it.

A mass grave is defined as a grave containing multiple human corpses, or the remains of multiple people.

Nessie, how many actual mass graves did CSC actually prove actually exist within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp?

Nessie's answer:

12 - G32, G29, G1, G44, G4, G38, G36, G50, G51, G52, G53, G54.

Only a determined denier, who has lost grip on reality, will pretend that the corroborating evidence from multiple witnesses who describe mass graves, the aerial photo that shows disturbed ground and rectangular outlines and the site surveys that identified disturbed ground and pits in the areas of the camp that the witnesses said contained the mass graves, is not evidence to prove mass graves.

You doubt and deny the evidence I produce.

I am both a trained historian and police officer.

The Nazis were not trying to magically disappear the corpses and the graves.

ALL the mass graves dug by the Nazis, AND the corpses they cremated, are still at the AR camps.

Mass graves are proven. By all normal standards of evidencing, they are proven.

Proof, from multiple sources of corroborating evidence, has been produced.

You ignore corroboration. You deny the gathered evidence.

Claiming that multiple pits found by geophysics in the same part of the camp that witnesses state the main mass graves were dug, is not corroborating evidence to prove mass graves, is denial of reality.

The physical evidence does exist.

I can point to them in the ground.

I do not avoid discussing the empirical evidence.

I have never had any issue with accepting the burden of proof.

Two simple foundational questioins for the mentally ill pathological liar:

cor·rob·or·ation

evidence which confirms or supports a statement or theory

#1: When you use the word "corroboration", do you mean "confirm" or "support"?

#2: When you use the word "prove" in alleging that 12 actual "huge mass graves" have actually been proven to actually exist within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp (G32, G29, G1, G44, G4, G38, G36, G50, G51, G52, G53, G54), which of the following standards of proof are you alleging:

Arranged from lowest to highest, the standards of proof in American law follow a rough hierarchy:

Reasonable suspicion: Enough specific facts to justify a brief police stop, but well short of what’s needed for an arrest or a search warrant.

Probable cause: A fair probability that a crime occurred or evidence will be found, sufficient for an arrest or warrant.

Substantial evidence: Enough that a reasonable person could accept it as adequate, used when courts review agency decisions.

Preponderance of the evidence: More likely than not, the default for most civil lawsuits.

Clear and convincing evidence: Highly probable, reserved for civil matters with serious consequences like fraud claims or termination of parental rights.

Beyond a reasonable doubt: Firm conviction of guilt, required for all criminal convictions.

Absolute certainty: A state of knowledge or proof so complete that there is no possibility of doubt or uncertainty

[/quote]

[Keen]

I refuse to debate him [Keen]

viewtopic.php?t=604

[borjastick]

Nesserto:

A Holocaust revisionist would produce evidence to prove the physical evidence is not there, such as geophysical surveys showing no disturbed ground, or eyewitnesses from the camp who say no mass graves were dug, or aerial photos showing the ground had never been dug into.

Well that would be Caroline Sturdy Colls.

The whole case for the holocaust actually having happened is made by people such as Nessie who start from the premise that a)many jews were missing and b)we know it happened so let's show the skewed evidence to prove it. They are not interested in debate they want debate shut down and people like us disbelievers shown the door. The very existence of holocaust doubt is because the evidence is either missing or the claims are silly and don't add up. If for example 800,000 people had been shipped into Treblinka for the sole purpose of mass murder the process would have been planned much better and the camp area wouldn't be full of small odd shaped 'burial sites'. The reality is as Nessie knows but can never admit, that Treblinka would be rammed with evidence of the mass murder. But it isn't so they resort to the old claim of 'the Germans covered up their crimes' nonsense. Then the best one ever 'if you cannot show us where they went they were murdered in the camps'.

I used to always distance myself from the Hitler apologists but what with what israel is doing and being made up of the same people who he wanted rid of from Germany and its territories, I can see why he did so.

[Nessie]

It really is this simple.

The physical evidence does exist, you chose to deny that, which is why you are a Holocaust denier, not a Holocaust revisionist. A Holocaust revisionist would produce evidence to prove the physical evidence is not there, such as geophysical surveys showing no disturbed ground, or eyewitnesses from the camp who say no mass graves were dug, or aerial photos showing the ground had never been dug into.

Just because you pretend there is sufficient grave spaces does not make it so.

There is no pretence. There is corroborating evidence hundreds of thousands were buried at each AR camp and Chelmno.

The reality of the situation is that the 'evidence' such as it exists, does not support many of the claims made by the orthodox thesis.

That is your opinion, your denial. It is not supported by the evidence and you have no evidence, from eyewitnesses, geophysics etc to support it.

Bring the resolution down to for example Sobibor. You are now moving out in to the trees to say, see there is sufficient grave space where they did not dig (they did a cursoryexamination of the top layer of strata), even though there are no positive bore samples in that area from Kola.

We can look at Belzec as well. The 'monument' covers negative strike areas from the bore study, the positive strike are unironically where the monument is left open. The deception here is to pretend that a negative is a positive and say, 'see there is sufficient grave space, just look at the monument', when there is in fact, not.

This is a (pardon the pun) monumental failure on your part.

For the evidence to support the claim, that evidence, in some form, has to exist. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence. The claims made about the Bug River camps are simply unsustainable as they are unsupported. Even SanityCheck appears to have accepted that and he has made a pivot to 'they were killed in other places but they still died because my aggregate chart of missing persons says they are absent'.

Instead of producing evidence to prove no or very limited mass graves, you deny the existing evidence and make assertions as if you are an expert in archaeology and history. You are clearly neither, but confidently assume you are correct, even though the evidence is against you (as in all the eyewitnesses and documents that record hundreds of thousands arrived at the camps and few left) and you cannot produce an evidenced narrative to prove no mass graves.

[Stubble]

This is so incredibly weak nessie. I can read a study, and, I have read them.

Your side of the coin ends up saying ridiculous shit like '20 bodies will fit in a square meter' when confronted with the evidence. You need only to look at the copes to understand this.

You go back in the ignore bucket.

[Nessie]

Nesserto:

A Holocaust revisionist would produce evidence to prove the physical evidence is not there, such as geophysical surveys showing no disturbed ground, or eyewitnesses from the camp who say no mass graves were dug, or aerial photos showing the ground had never been dug into.

Well that would be Caroline Sturdy Colls.

The whole case for the holocaust actually having happened is made by people such as Nessie who start from the premise that a)many jews were missing and b)we know it happened so let's show the skewed evidence to prove it.

The bulk of the evidence comes from Nazi sources. They provide the bulk of the eyewitnesses, all the physical and documentary evidence, along with motive, opportunity, ability and guilty conduct after the crime.

They are not interested in debate they want debate sut down and people like us disbelievers shown the door.

Here, it is the other way round, with me being shut down.

The very existence of holocaust doubt is because the evidence is either missing or the claims are silly and don't add up. If for example 800,000 people had been shipped into Treblinka for the sole purpose of mass murder the process would have been planned much better and the camp area wouldn't be full of small odd shaped 'burial sites'. The reality is as Nessie knows but can never admit, that Treblinka would be rammed with evidence of the mass murder. But it isn't so they resort to the old claim of 'the Germans covered up their crimes' nonsense. Then the best one ever 'if you cannot show us where they went they were murdered in the camps'.

I used to always distance myself from the Hitler apologists but what with israel doing what it is doing and being made up of the same people who he wanted rid of from Germany and its territories, I can see why he did so.

TII is "rammed" with evidence, which you chose not to accept, because apparently the Nazis would have "planned it much better", which is an argument with no evidential value. Historians "resort" to asking for an evidenced alternative which proves hundreds of thousands of people left the camp, because history is about evidencing what happened. That you think being asked to provide and evidenced, revised history is somehow unreasonable, proves you are not genuine.

[Keen]

TII is "rammed" with evidence.

Hundreds of thousands were buried at each AR camp and Chelmno.

OPENING / FUNDAMENTAL STATEMENT OF FACT: It is alleged in orthodox historiography that; during WW II, the bodies and burnt remains of hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of Jews were buried in numerous “huge mass graves” at Belzec, Chelmno, Ponary, Sobibor and Treblinka II. However, despite all the deceptive, unsubstantiated allegations to the contrary, the truth is, the largest (in terms of quantity of remains) of the 100 graves in question that are fraudulently alleged to have been “scientifically proven” to currently exist at these five sites, in which verified human remains have been uncovered / tangibly located via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented archaeology, contained the remains of - ONLY SIX PEOPLE.

Note: Using the information presented on this website and applying legal standards used in U.S. courts, the above opening / fundamental statement of fact, which is written as, and can be defined as - a rebuttable presumption - can be - LEGALLY - ACCEPTED - AS - TRUE - in a U.S. court.

...

A - $100.00 reward - is being offered for each one of the 100 alleged “scientifically proven” mass graves / cremation pits in question that is proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U. S. civil courts - to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of - at least 2 people. (That is less than one tenth of one one thousandth of one percent of the alleged mass murder.)

Note: The 6 original fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka II that were alleged by “authoritative eyewitnesses” and allegedly - “PROVEN” - to exist in the early show trials - MODEL - MAP - (but never proven to exist), are also included in the above reward offer. (A photo of one of these 6 fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” can be seen - HERE.)

Here are 13 of the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels as "possible grave sites"):



And here are 12 of the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels as "probable burial / cremation pits"):



And here are the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels in various ways):



And here is how Colls' numbers correspond to - THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX CHALLENGE
( http://thisisaboutscience.com/ ) numbering system:

CSC G50 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #1/86

CSC G54 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #2/87

CSC G53 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #3/88

CSC G52 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #4/89

CSC G51 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #5/90

CSC F1 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #6/91

CSC G44 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #7/92

CSC G1 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #8/93

CSC G4 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #9/94

CSC G38 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #10/95

CSC F16 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #11/96

NOTE: This is a photo of fraudulently alleged "huge mass grave" F16:

https://i.postimg.cc/vT4MG5d5/Treblinka-F16.jpg

CSC F9 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #12/97

CSC G29 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #13/98

CSC G32 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #14/99

CSC G36 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #15/100

As well, there are the 6 additional fraudulently alleged "eyewitness" - "huge mass graves:"

The Wiernik model (Starting from upper left to right: *1A/*101, *2A/*102, *3A/*103, *4A/*104, *5A/*105, *6A/*106):

https://web.archive.org/web/20110210205 ... age001.jpg

And the Stangl trial map (Starting from upper left to right: *1B/*101, *2B/*102, *3B/*103, *4B/*104, *5B/*105, *6B/*106):

https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/wp-content/u ... apa-22.jpg

*NOTE: this is a photo of one of the 6 fraudulently alleged "eyewitness" - "huge mass graves:"

https://i.postimg.cc/65zjGzLY/Monumentmassgrave-TII.jpg

http://thisisaboutscience.com/

[Nessie]

This is so incredibly weak nessie. I can read a study, and, I have read them.

Your side of the coin ends up saying ridiculous shit like '20 bodies will fit in a square meter' when confronted with the evidence. You need only to look at the copes to understand this.

You go back in the ignore bucket.

Historians don't at grave capacity like that. That is a denier argument, that you cannot work out how so many corpses fitted in the mass graves, when we do not have a precise number of corpses and precise dimensions of the original graves. For a historian, not being able to work out grave capacities, sizes and densities, is not an evidential issue, as it is proven hundreds of thousands were killed and buried there.

Historians, and war crimes investigators look at the evidence the Nazis left and see a massive cover up and destruction of evidence, whereby they made it impossible to conduct body counts and map precisely where the graves were. That means they understand no definitive deductions can be made. You do not understand that and try to make deductions, which you want to fail, to support your disbelief. You do that because you cannot produce evidence to prove no mass graves of hundreds of thousands.

[Keen]

They [the Germans] made it impossible to conduct body counts and map precisely where the graves were.

There is the mentally ill pathological liar spewing its "magically disappearing jew / huge mass grave theory" again!!!

A - $100.00 reward - is being offered for each one of the 100 alleged “scientifically proven” mass graves / cremation pits in question that is proven - with the same standard of proof applied in U. S. civil courts - to actually exist and to currently contain the remains of - at least 2 people. (That is less than one tenth of one one thousandth of one percent of the alleged mass murder.)

Note: The 6 original fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka II that were alleged by “authoritative eyewitnesses” and allegedly - “PROVEN” - to exist in the early show trials - MODEL - MAP - (but never proven to exist), are also included in the above reward offer. (A photo of one of these 6 fraudulently alleged “huge mass graves” can be seen - HERE.)

Here are 13 of the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels as "possible grave sites"):



And here are 12 of the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels as "probable burial / cremation pits"):



And here are the 15 fraudulently alleged "huge mass graves" of Treblinka II - as alleged by the charlatan Caroline Sturdy Colls (which she labels in various ways):



And here is how Colls' numbers correspond to - THE HOLOCAUST ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX CHALLENGE
( http://thisisaboutscience.com/ ) numbering system:

CSC G50 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #1/86

CSC G54 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #2/87

CSC G53 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #3/88

CSC G52 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #4/89

CSC G51 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #5/90

CSC F1 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #6/91

CSC G44 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #7/92

CSC G1 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #8/93

CSC G4 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #9/94

CSC G38 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #10/95

CSC F16 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #11/96

NOTE: This is a photo of fraudulently alleged "huge mass grave" F16:

https://i.postimg.cc/vT4MG5d5/Treblinka-F16.jpg

CSC F9 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #12/97

CSC G29 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #13/98

CSC G32 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #14/99

CSC G36 = The H.A.H.C. "huge mass grave" #15/100

As well, there are the 6 additional fraudulently alleged "eyewitness" - "huge mass graves:"

The Wiernik model (Starting from upper left to right: *1A/*101, *2A/*102, *3A/*103, *4A/*104, *5A/*105, *6A/*106):

https://web.archive.org/web/20110210205 ... age001.jpg

And the Stangl trial map (Starting from upper left to right: *1B/*101, *2B/*102, *3B/*103, *4B/*104, *5B/*105, *6B/*106):

https://muzeumtreblinka.eu/wp-content/u ... apa-22.jpg

*NOTE: this is a photo of one of the 6 fraudulently alleged "eyewitness" - "huge mass graves:"

https://i.postimg.cc/65zjGzLY/Monumentmassgrave-TII.jpg

[/quote]

[Keen]

They [the Germans] made it impossible to map precisely where the graves were.

Also the mentally ill pathological liar:

Claiming that multiple pits found by geophysics in the same part of the camp that witnesses state the main mass graves were dug, is not corroborating evidence to prove mass graves, is denial of reality.

I can point to them in the ground.

[borjastick]

TII is "rammed" with evidence, which you chose not to accept, because apparently the Nazis would have "planned it much better", which is an argument with no evidential value. Historians "resort" to asking for an evidenced alternative which proves hundreds of thousands of people left the camp, because history is about evidencing what happened. That you think being asked to provide and evidenced, revised history is somehow unreasonable, proves you are not genuine.

These idiotic ramblings by his Royal nessiness show exactly why he is best avoided and if I had my way would be banned from this site. Read the above carefully and slowly and see if you can understand and God forbid, make any sense of it.

If you don't think the Germans would and do plan things carefully and uber logically then you are speaking to us from another planet. You then claim that Treblinka is indeed rammed with evidence when quite obviously to those of us with a working brain it is not. Finally you do the usual eyewitnesses routine which is laughable really. Every day on my facebook feed I see posts about little Moshe Finklebaum who went into Auschwitz and was murdered blah blah bbbbbbb. These posts are nonsense and have no proof attached at all. When someone then asks how they know that little Rebecca Prosser was gassed upon arrival they often claim it was witnessed or a camp inmate said so. Complete and utter tosh. Your rantings about Treblinka, shown above, prove you are in the same camp of the deluded and dumb. You probably deny that tens of thousands of innocent children in Gaza were slaughtered since October seventh and that israel is not currently doing the same in Lebanon whilst at the same time stealing hundreds of square kilometers of another country.

Jews and zionist supporters and those of a weak mental disposition who favour the holocaust of six million jews who didn't exist and gas chambers that cannot be shown, should be ignored at all costs and sectioned.

[Stubble]

TII is "rammed" with evidence, which you chose not to accept, because apparently the Nazis would have "planned it much better", which is an argument with no evidential value. Historians "resort" to asking for an evidenced alternative which proves hundreds of thousands of people left the camp, because history is about evidencing what happened. That you think being asked to provide and evidenced, revised history is somehow unreasonable, proves you are not genuine.

These idiotic ramblings by his Royal nessiness show exactly why he is best avoided and if I had my way would be banned from this site. Read the above carefully and slowly and see if you can understand and God forbid, make any sense of it.

If you don't think the Germans would and do plan things carefully and uber logically then you are speaking to us from another planet. You then claim that Treblinka is indeed rammed with evidence when quite obviously to those of us with a working brain it is not. Finally you do the usual eyewitnesses routine which is laughable really. Every day on my facebook feed I see posts about little Moshe Finklebaum who went into Auschwitz and was murdered blah blah bbbbbbb. These posts are nonsense and have no proof attached at all. When someone then asks how they know that little Rebecca Prosser was gassed upon arrival they often claim it was witnessed or a camp inmate said so. Complete and utter tosh. Your rantings about Treblinka, shown above, prove you are in the same camp of the deluded and dumb. You probably deny that tens of thousands of innocent children in Gaza were slaughtered since October seventh and that israel is not currently doing the same in Lebanon whilst at the same time stealing hundreds of square kilometers of another country.

Jews and zionist supporters and those of a weak mental disposition who favour the holocaust of six million jews who didn't exist and gas chambers that cannot be shown, should be ignored at all costs and sectioned.

But, but, Borjastick, how do you explain this documentary from Ben Hecht?

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... ie-pageant

Didn't he also write an article claiming that '6,000,000 will perish' back in '42?

Incredible, isn't it?

It sure is a good thing he was there to 'show' the American people what them Nazis was doin'.