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Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:38 am
by Nessie
pilgrimofdark wrote: Wed Nov 19, 2025 8:45 pm These are a few things that happened:

At Treblinka train station, Jankiel Wiernik observed a trainload of 5,000-12,000 living, half-dressed Jews heading north from the T-II area back towards Malkinia.
There is evidence of some selections for workers at TII and those workers were sent to labour camps in Poland.
Wiernik and Abram Goldfarb observed chlorinated lime being used, but assumed it was for homicidal purposes. So those two were never close enough to the "chlorine chamber" buildings, but were passing around "hearsay atrocity rumors" they heard elsewhere. According to the Official Holocaust Rules™, they can no longer count as "direct" witnesses.
Like many witnesses, their testimony is a mix of hearsay and eyewitness evidence. They remain direct witnesses to what they saw.
Broni Teperman confirmed to the Soviet investigation that he used the chlorinated lime himself to whiten his clothing. He just went up to the barrels next to the building with the French Citroen motor and took some.

The below district railway map shows Treblinka and Sobibor near the jurisdictional limit of the Generaldirektion der Ostbahn. Treblinka and Belzec are near internal district borders.
Spoiler
Image

Polish state archives Reference code: 29/663/0/7/1288
Link

(there are a ton more maps like this one)
You are throwing about evidence without any structure or rational.
In terms of Ostbahn/Wehrmacht transfer of service, Robotnik Polski w Wielkiej Brytanji had this to say about "Treblinka" in October 1944:
[in the context of transporting Jews from Czechoslovakia]

Because the train, which had just sped along the track towards Małkinia, when it reached the outskirts of Treblinka, would change its service: Polish railway workers would be replaced by the army, and the wagons would be emptied of people arriving from a distant world. They will journey to buildings called bathhouses, from which they will never return. Here their journey will end.

- "The Big City of Treblinka." Robotnik Polski w Wielkiej Brytanji. October 1, 1944. ("WIELKIE MIASTO TREBLINKA")
Link
The "outskirts of Treblinka" does not refer to the T-II camp, since it had been closed long before the date of this newspaper report. It may refer to the Treblinka train station/settlement area.
It is a secondary report, that lacks evidence.
This 1944 Deutsche Heereskarte map points to a separate "<--Treblinka" area on the outskirts of the Treblinka town. It is quite a bit north of the T-II area and T-I quarry/camp.
The AR camp, TII, was on the spur line to the labour camp, TI.
The 1945 Polish investigative report Obóz zagłady Treblinka concluded "During the investigation, no mass graves were found during field work, which, in connection with the testimonies of witnesses, leads to the assumption that almost all the bodies of the victims were burned." Two of the thirteen witnesses (full disclosure: some people define 15% as "all") apparently contradicted this and indicated there were mass graves on a map made by a Polish surveyor who could not accurately identify cardinal compass directions and revised his original map a year later to remove references to burial places but still misidentified the compass orientation of the camp (or did he?). Five of the witnesses were also interrogated by the Red Army in 1944, where they repeated more atrocity rumors and participated in a Year in Treblinka book club.

Anyway, all of this would need to be substantiated more.
You cherry pick the report of not finding mass graves, as in multiple buried corpses, and ignore the report where it describes a huge area of buried cremated remains in the same area of the camp that 10 witnesses had located the main graves, on plans they had drawn, or had been drawn to their specification.

You ignore that you cannot name a single witness who you believe.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:41 am
by Nessie
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 3:51 am
pilgrimofdark wrote: Wed Nov 19, 2025 8:45 pm The below district railway map shows Treblinka and Sobibor near the jurisdictional limit of the Generaldirektion der Ostbahn. Treblinka and Belzec are near internal district borders.
Great finds, pilgrimofdark. Regarding Belzec, it is interesting that this camp isn't actually within the Gedob borders... It got me thinking, so I put together a table just summarizing what the "three sister" camps had in common, location-wise:


RCL.jpg


On each of the criteria above:
  • At Soviet demarcation line: Was this location along the 1939–1941 German–Soviet demarcation line?
  • At Arbeitsbereich border: Was this location approximately at the 'Arbeitsbereich' (Work Area; mainly Lublin district) border?
  • Probable rail gauge changes: Given this location, were rail gauge changes (including passenger/cargo unloading and reloading) possibly needed here?
  • Typhus control border: Was typhus especially bad further East of this location (necessitating control measures at the border)?
  • Security concerns: Were security conditions (partisans/sabotage) an issue further east, possibly suggesting some special measures or Wehrmacht designation beyond this point?
  • Property management: Did property sorting/management per Aktion Reinhardt occur here?
  • At Gedob border: Is this location formally along the Generaldirektion der Ostbahn (Gedob) border?
  • Occupied pre-1941: Was this location occupied by Germany before June 1941?
Regarding typhus control, see: viewtopic.php?p=18842#p18842

Any of the above factors could explain why a major camp might be situated there, and we see that not only are these camps located as such, but the verifiable evidence (e.g. diggings, Reinhardt documentation) all firmly align with these suggested uses.
So, TII was where people went for a border security check, to stop the spread of typhus, to change train and have all of their property taken from them. Do you say all of those processes happened at the same time?

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 8:55 am
by Callafangers
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:41 am So, TII was where people went for a border security check, to stop the spread of typhus, to change train and have all of their property taken from them. Do you say all of those processes happened at the same time?
The funny thing is, Nessie, that all of those things are compatible with one another and evidenced.

You're here struggling to find a grave amounting to 1% of what you claim, whereas revisionists have mapped out the facts:
  • Junk property is buried at Treblinka, not Jews (for the most part) -- documented, verified
  • Where Jews are buried, we find amounts to that of typhus victims at most -- quantified (or estimated), documented
  • Setting up border stations to combat typhus is documented, as I've shown in the reference linked in my last post
  • Your witnesses tell lots of lies -- very well documented
  • Border stations explain seeing camps like Treblinka, Sobibor as an apparent "last stop" -- as documented
  • You can't explain the firewood conundrum (not even with loads of gasoline - sorry bombsaway) -- documented (or a lack thereof)
  • The pattern of staff experience was not murder but economic tasks, registration office work, medical/nursing, sanitation, transportation, and cooking -- documented
Need I go on? You've already lost, Nessie. It's just a matter of time before you realize it.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:55 am
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:28 am There is the evidence to prove mass graves and a large area of cremated remains buried at TII. That you dispute that evidence, is different from there being no evidence.

You lie about the lack of evidence of mass burials and cremations, to deflect attention from your inability to evidence what did happen inside the camp.
If you have anything to show of A) mass graves with capacity for 800,000 people and B) the remains of 800,000 people, our good friend Keen in the disruptors forum would be very interested to see all of that and duke it out with you.

As it stands, nothing in the main forum has been presented to substantiate anything close to what you are claiming, and so the claims remain unsubstantiated and baseless.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:54 am
by Nessie
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 8:55 am
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:41 am So, TII was where people went for a border security check, to stop the spread of typhus, to change train and have all of their property taken from them. Do you say all of those processes happened at the same time?
The funny thing is, Nessie, that all of those things are compatible with one another and evidenced.
Yet, you fail to evidence any of those processes actually taking place.
You're here struggling to find a grave amounting to 1% of what you claim, whereas revisionists have mapped out the facts:
  • Junk property is buried at Treblinka, not Jews (for the most part) -- documented, verified
In fact, a lot of the buried property is of Jewish origins.
[*] Where Jews are buried, we find amounts to that of typhus victims at most -- quantified (or estimated), documented
But, when I ask a so-called revisionist to be precise and say how much of the ground is disturbed and how many corpses were buried, they cannot say.
[*] Setting up border stations to combat typhus is documented, as I've shown in the reference linked in my last post
But, you cannot evidence TII was one of those camps.
[*] Your witnesses tell lots of lies -- very well documented
Wrong. Your way of assessing witness evidence is deeply flawed and results in the extraordinary claim that 100% of them successfully lied about mass killings at the camp, without anyone making a mistake, and blowing the hoax, by revealling what did take place.
[*] Border stations explain seeing camps like Treblinka, Sobibor as an apparent "last stop" -- as documented
You cannot evidence TII as a border station, with mass transports of people arriving and then leaving.
[*] You can't explain the firewood conundrum (not even with loads of gasoline - sorry bombsaway) -- documented (or a lack thereof)
Wood was gathered locally, or delivered from wood yards and not as much was needed for the pyres, as you think.
[*] The pattern of staff experience was not murder but economic tasks, registration office work, medical/nursing, sanitation, transportation, and cooking -- documented[/list]
They all came from T4, a euthanasia programme, killing the disabled in hospitals set up as euthanasia centres.
Need I go on? You've already lost, Nessie. It's just a matter of time before you realize it.
Historians can provide an evidenced chronology of events inside TII, from the date it opened to when it closed. They can provide dates of transports, when the gas chambers were replaced, when cremations started and when the rebellion broke out.

You cannot do that basic task.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:57 am
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:55 am
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:28 am There is the evidence to prove mass graves and a large area of cremated remains buried at TII. That you dispute that evidence, is different from there being no evidence.

You lie about the lack of evidence of mass burials and cremations, to deflect attention from your inability to evidence what did happen inside the camp.
If you have anything to show of A) mass graves with capacity for 800,000 people and B) the remains of 800,000 people, our good friend Keen in the disruptors forum would be very interested to see all of that and duke it out with you.

As it stands, nothing in the main forum has been presented to substantiate anything close to what you are claiming, and so the claims remain unsubstantiated and baseless.
Keen has been shown the evidence hundreds of times. He bases the vast majority of his questions on that evidence, which he then choses to reject and deny.

As it stands, there have been two main archaeological surveys of TII, both of which found evidence that corroborates the eyewitness claims about multiple mass graves, a gas chambers, the mass theft of property and explains why hundreds of thousands of people documented to have arrived at the camp, never left.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 12:35 pm
by HansHill
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:57 am Keen has been shown the evidence hundreds of times. He bases the vast majority of his questions on that evidence, which he then choses to reject and deny.

As it stands, there have been two main archaeological surveys of TII, both of which found evidence that corroborates the eyewitness claims about multiple mass graves, a gas chambers, the mass theft of property and explains why hundreds of thousands of people documented to have arrived at the camp, never left.
This is a lie, and you are a liar. You have not shown Keen, or anybody else for that matter, the remains of 800,000 bodies at Treblinka, and neither have you showed him or anybody else the grave space capacity for 800,000 corpses.

You are a liar, and your claims remain unsubstantiated.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:19 pm
by pilgrimofdark
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:38 am You ignore that you cannot name a single witness who you believe.
I believe this is an overly-broad, conclusory statement that has been provided with no support.

I am requesting the support for this statement in accordance with this forum rule:
If you make a controversial claim without support, others have the right to request support. ... Citing overly vague support (like a lengthy source with no explanation) may also be considered non-responsive.
To provide the required support, I am demanding the below.

1. A list of the following:
  • every single witness to every single aspect of the Holocaust,
  • every single statement they have made, in writing or otherwise,
  • on every side of the conflict,
  • from every single country and locality involved,
  • from the years 1939-present
2. Whether I "believe" that particular witness or not.
3. Whether I have "ignored" that witness's statement or not.

Only by listing every "single witness" and all of their statements first can such a conclusion be supported or I can attempt to debate with it.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:25 pm
by Nessie
HansHill wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 12:35 pm
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:57 am Keen has been shown the evidence hundreds of times. He bases the vast majority of his questions on that evidence, which he then choses to reject and deny.

As it stands, there have been two main archaeological surveys of TII, both of which found evidence that corroborates the eyewitness claims about multiple mass graves, a gas chambers, the mass theft of property and explains why hundreds of thousands of people documented to have arrived at the camp, never left.
This is a lie, and you are a liar. You have not shown Keen, or anybody else for that matter, the remains of 800,000 bodies at Treblinka, and neither have you showed him or anybody else the grave space capacity for 800,000 corpses.

You are a liar, and your claims remain unsubstantiated.
The archaeological surveys prove you wrong. It is merely your opinion they contained the corpses of those who died from typhus. You offer no evidence to support that claim.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm
by Nessie
pilgrimofdark wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:19 pm
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:38 am You ignore that you cannot name a single witness who you believe.
I believe this is an overly-broad, conclusory statement that has been provided with no support.
You say that, in a thread where it has been stated "Your witnesses tell lots of lies -- very well documented"!
I am requesting the support for this statement in accordance with this forum rule:
If you make a controversial claim without support, others have the right to request support. ... Citing overly vague support (like a lengthy source with no explanation) may also be considered non-responsive.
To provide the required support, I am demanding the below.

1. A list of the following:
  • every single witness to every single aspect of the Holocaust,
  • every single statement they have made, in writing or otherwise,
  • on every side of the conflict,
  • from every single country and locality involved,
  • from the years 1939-present
2. Whether I "believe" that particular witness or not.
3. Whether I have "ignored" that witness's statement or not.

Only by listing every "single witness" and all of their statements first can such a conclusion be supported or I can attempt to debate with it.
My claim is in relation to the witnesses who worked at TII. List of witnesses to TII here;

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=372

"D1) Treblinka Nazis :


1) Franz Stangl 1970 - Dussledorf
Camp commander Sobibor and Treblinka
2) Kurt Franz 1964 - Dussledorf
deputy camp commander. 'the doll'
3) Willi Mentz 1964 - Dussledorf
'the gunman of Treblinka' - 'frankenstein'
4) Heinrich Mattes 1964 - Dussledorf
'doctor'
5) Otto von Horn 1964 - Dussledorf
1990's - IvanTerrible
(witness)
6) Erwin Lambert 1964 - Dussledorf
'the flying architect'
7) Franz Suchomel 1964 - Dussledorf
8) August Miete 1964 - Dussledorf
'Angel of death'
9) Gustav Munzberger 1964 - Dussledorf
10) Otto Stadie 1964 - Dussledorf
11) Rudolf Hoess
Auschwitz camp commander
12) Dr Irmfried Erbel arrested jan 48
First commander of camp - replaced for incompetence
13) Erich Fuchs
based at sobibor

D2) Treblinka Ukranian camp staff :

1) Feodor Federenko 1.pre-trial testimony
25.05.76 hartford usa
2.denaturalisation
USA june 78
3. Russian Trial - 1950?
2) Nikolay Shalayev ( guard and motorist) 1. protokol doprosa -
18.12.50 (federenko trial?)
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-126
3) Ivan Semyonovich Shevchenko 1. protokol doprosa -
08.09.44.
2. GARF 7445-2-34 p19
4) Pavel Leleko protokol doprosa -
20.02.45.
5) Nikolai Malagon 1. interrogation -
18.03.78 russia
(for demjanuk trial ?)
6) Prokofij Ryabtsev 1.protokol doprosa -
03.02.65.
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-121
7) Georgij Aleksandr Skidan 1. 26.05.50
2. Jack Reimer trial -
usa 2004 - GX-141

D3) Treblinka - Jewish inmates :

1) Jankiel Wiernik - 8/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
Eichmann Trial - 1961
2) Chil Rajchman - 9/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
(Yechiel Reichman) Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
YVT - 03/3816
3) Jerzy Rajgrotski -9/42-8/43 revolt jewish historical institute
1958 no25 106-108
4) Sonia Lewkowicz - 12/42-8/43 revolt Federenko Trial - USA 1978
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
YVT - 03/4181
5) Abraham Goldfarb - 8/42 - 8/43 revolt Protokol doprosa - 21.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P31
YVT - 03/1846
6) Chaim Sztajer -9/42 - 8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
7) Pinchas Epstein - 9/42-8/43 revolt Demjanuk Trial - Israel 1988
Eichmann Trial - 1961
8) Samuel Rajzman - 9/42-8/43 Polish Commission 1946
note - mainly hearsay nuremberg - 1946
Yad Vashem Testimony
Federenko Trial - USA 1978
1964 Dussledorf
report 1944
YVT 03/547
9) Eliyahu Rosenberg - 9/42-8/43 revolt Statement Vienna 1947
Demjanuk Trial - USA 1981
Eichmann Trial - 1961
YVA 03/4039
10) Abraham Bomba - 9/42 - 12/42 escaped
11) Abraham Kaszepicki - 8/42-9/42 for 18 days escaped report dec 42
12) Mendel Korytnicki - ?? Protokol doprosa - 23.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P56r
13) David Milgroim - 1942 escaped after a week report made in slovakia 8/43
note - unsure if hearsay OSS? In istanbul recd 1944
14) Leon Finklestein - 7/42 - 8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946"

You will not find a so-called revisionist, who accepts the evidence, from any of those witnesses, about what happened inside TII.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:31 pm
by pilgrimofdark
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:38 amYou ignore that you cannot name a single witness who you believe.
You took upon yourself the burden to provide support for this sentence.

You did not provide a full list of every single witness with every statement they made. Nor have you provided support for whether I have ignored each witness and statement. Nor is there any support for your knowledge of my belief of the witness and individual statement.

That is the minimum you need to provide.

A list of every single witness and every statement they made is required to establish the baseline for any debate about my belief of any "single witness."
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm My claim is in relation to the witnesses who worked at TII. List of witnesses to TII here;

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=372
The list provided doesn't include even all the witnesses from the 1944 Soviet investigation, or the 1945 Polish investigation.

Ukrainians
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 2) Nikolay Shalayev ( guard and motorist) 1. protokol doprosa -
18.12.50 (federenko trial?)

5) Nikolai Malagon 1. interrogation -
18.03.78 russia
(for demjanuk trial ?)
Why are there questions marks on these? "Federenko trial?" "For Demjanuk trial?"

Did you add those question marks yourself? For what purpose?

You're not sure whether the statement exists or what it was given for?

Jankiel Wiernik
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 1) Jankiel Wiernik - 8/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
Eichmann Trial - 1961
This doesn't include Wiernik's October 12, 1945 statement in Łódź to Judge Łukaszkiewicz, nor his Fischer trial testimony from 1947.

Abram Goldfarb
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm Abraham Goldfarb - 8/42 - 8/43 revolt Protokol doprosa - 21.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P31
Are you claiming Goldfarb's statement is only on Page 31 of that GARF archival document? It's not. It's on pages 28-37.

Where did you get that archival citation from? Did you read a transcription of it? Did you notice it's too long to fit on a single page?

This isn't even every statement Goldfarb gave in 1944 to the Soviets within a 5-day period.

Goldfarb gave an additional interrogation on the very next page of the document you cited a single page of as his entire "Protokol doprosa."
GARF 7445-2-134 p. 38.

Samuel Rajzman
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 8) Samuel Rajzman - 9/42-8/43 Polish Commission 1946
note - mainly hearsay nuremberg - 1946
Yad Vashem Testimony
Federenko Trial - USA 1978
1964 Dussledorf
report 1944
YVT 03/547
"report 1944." Are you not sure if it's a "protokol doprosa" or not? How do you expect people to check this source?

Is this entire list your original work? Are you taking responsibility for this reference style?

Rajzman/Reizman/Reisman was also interrogated by the Soviets, which has an actual reference in an actual archive, and a transcription is available online.
GARF P-7021-115-11 pp. 77-89.

Alexander Kudlik

Kudlik isn't on this list at all, but he was on the list of "map witnesses" for the mass graves from that 2006 webpage you posted elsewhere. I'd suggest you "ignore" him because you don't "believe" him, but that would be uncharitable and I have no idea if that would be an accurate statement or simply a reckless assumption.

Kudlik has an interrogation protocol with the Soviets in 1944.

The protocol of the interrogation of Alexander Kudlik on the deportation of citizens of the United States and Great Britain to Treblinka
GARF P-7021-115-10 p. 7–9.

Mendel Korytnicki
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 12) Mendel Korytnicki - ?? Protokol doprosa - 23.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P56r
More question marks in a citation. What questions do you have about this? What did you do to answer your own questions?

What does "P56r" mean to you? Page 56 and the following page? What happened to the other pages?

What is specifically on "P56r" you suggest we look at?

His entire interrogation protocols are on pages 52-61.
GARF 7445-2-134 pp. 52-61.

---

Are these people you don't respect enough to read their entire interrogation protocols? Why cite them at me if you don't care to read or cite them properly yourself?

These citations are so incorrect that it's debatable whether the entire posts should be deleted as they could mislead readers.

I'm not going to check more of this. You took upon yourself the burden of supporting your statement, so this research work is yours and I look forward to the full results.

Once you compile the full list, I will check it again for completeness and accuracy.

If it is deemed a complete list, then you can start going through each and every single statement each witness makes and provide the following:
  1. Each statement from each witness, in a list that is structured and rational
  2. A cited source indicating my awareness of that source
  3. A cited source where I deliberately ignored that specific source
  4. A cited source where I stated my explicit disbelief in that specific statement
At that point, I will confirm whether you are correct or not. This will constitute the debatable portion of your statement.

Until then, your burden is to provide the support as requested.

Or you can simply retract and admit you're in no position to make factual statements about what other posters "ignore" or "believe," and it is uncharitable to presume to do so.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:19 pm
by Callafangers
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:54 am
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 8:55 am The funny thing is, Nessie, that all of those things [delousing, border measures, property sorting, etc.] are compatible with one another and evidenced.
Yet, you fail to evidence any of those processes actually taking place.
EVIDENCED Typhus:
For months, English and American newspapers have been reporting on a new weapon the Soviets supposedly possess to defeat the Germans this winter: typhus. They believe they have found a new "general" who could save them—General Typhus.
[...]
In Germany, all necessary countermeasures were taken in time to prevent this danger. The German border was secured by a network of delousing facilities that acted like a demarcation line. Dr. Conti adds that the threat of typhus has been averted.
[...]
In the incorporated eastern territories, there were 43 cases among Germans and 338 among Jews. In recent weeks, this number has been further reduced. In the metropolis of Berlin, there were only four cases in the entire month of February. It is a clear reality; there is practically no longer any risk of typhus. By eliminating this threat from the East, Germany is once again fulfilling a European responsibility.
"There is no danger of typhus", translated from German. Oesterreichische Volks-Zeitung, März 1942, 1942-03-28, p. 3

EVIDENCED: Border measures (Gedob, Lublin/Work Area, Soviet demarcation line):
Spoiler
Image

Polish state archives Reference code: 29/663/0/7/1288
Link
EVIDENCED Property Sorting:

'A New Revisionist Interpretation of Operation Reinhardt'
viewtopic.php?t=26
You're here struggling to find a grave amounting to 1% of what you claim, whereas revisionists have mapped out the facts:
  • Junk property is buried at Treblinka, not Jews (for the most part) -- documented, verified
In fact, a lot of the buried property is of Jewish origins.
No shit it's of Jewish origins. It's probably at least 95% Jewish or more. This is my point, not yours.
[*] Where Jews are buried, we find amounts to that of typhus victims at most -- quantified (or estimated), documented
But, when I ask a so-called revisionist to be precise and say how much of the ground is disturbed and how many corpses were buried, they cannot say.
'Disturbed' means nothing at all. It doesn't mean corpses, especially because it's proven 100% (per Judge Lukasciewicz and his team) that other diggings were rampant.
[*] Setting up border stations to combat typhus is documented, as I've shown in the reference linked in my last post
But, you cannot evidence TII was one of those camps.
How many other camps have you evidenced for this purpose? Zero? Guess you're admitting it's the AR camps by default, then.
[*] Your witnesses tell lots of lies -- very well documented
Wrong. Your way of assessing witness evidence is deeply flawed and results in the extraordinary claim that 100% of them successfully lied about mass killings at the camp, without anyone making a mistake, and blowing the hoax, by revealling what did take place.
Your list of ALL witnesses at Treblinka per pilgrimofdark's recent request yielded some ~35 total persons, many of them proven liars, such as Abraham Bomba who says he was giving barbershop-style haircuts to Jews before they went into the 'gas chamber' because, you know, reasons...
[*] Border stations explain seeing camps like Treblinka, Sobibor as an apparent "last stop" -- as documented
You cannot evidence TII as a border station, with mass transports of people arriving and then leaving.
It's literally on the border (Soviet border, Gedob border, district border). It doesn't get much clearer:
Spoiler
Image

Polish state archives Reference code: 29/663/0/7/1288
Link
[*] You can't explain the firewood conundrum (not even with loads of gasoline - sorry bombsaway) -- documented (or a lack thereof)
Wood was gathered locally, or delivered from wood yards and not as much was needed for the pyres, as you think.
Sorry, this doesn't explain (let alone evidence) the largest mass burning event the world has ever seen 100x over -- not by a long shot. You're about 400,000,000 kg short in terms of evidence for wood, even if assuming they doused it with gasoline regularly. You also need to explain where the ashes went, since nobody digging at Treblinka has found them.
[*] The pattern of staff experience was not murder but economic tasks, registration office work, medical/nursing, sanitation, transportation, and cooking -- documented[/list]
They all came from T4, a euthanasia programme, killing the disabled in hospitals set up as euthanasia centres.
They didn't "all" come from T4; about 70-75% came from an institution or facility that had euthanasia operations taking place, but most had worked in registration, economics, and other general institutional tasks. If T4 hadn't closed at the time it did, staffing for AR camps would have come from elsewhere.
Need I go on? You've already lost, Nessie. It's just a matter of time before you realize it.
Historians can provide an evidenced chronology of events inside TII, from the date it opened to when it closed. They can provide dates of transports, when the gas chambers were replaced, when cremations started and when the rebellion broke out.

You cannot do that basic task.
"Historians" can posture themselves as genuine truth-seekers while simultaneously breaking all rules of logic, or not understanding what logic is to begin with, based on the cult-like manifestation that the field of historiography has recently (20th century and since) become. The tradition of writing history itself has been subverted by the same people subverting the written history. No reasonable person would nor should ever put 'the witnesses' ahead of the measurable, verifiable facts.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2025 12:58 am
by Archie
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:25 pm
HansHill wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 12:35 pm
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:57 am Keen has been shown the evidence hundreds of times. He bases the vast majority of his questions on that evidence, which he then choses to reject and deny.

As it stands, there have been two main archaeological surveys of TII, both of which found evidence that corroborates the eyewitness claims about multiple mass graves, a gas chambers, the mass theft of property and explains why hundreds of thousands of people documented to have arrived at the camp, never left.
This is a lie, and you are a liar. You have not shown Keen, or anybody else for that matter, the remains of 800,000 bodies at Treblinka, and neither have you showed him or anybody else the grave space capacity for 800,000 corpses.

You are a liar, and your claims remain unsubstantiated.
The archaeological surveys prove you wrong. It is merely your opinion they contained the corpses of those who died from typhus. You offer no evidence to support that claim.
Reminder that Nessie thinks that the photos below are proof of 900,000 murders.

Image

Given that Nessie's judgment is clearly detached from reality, his opinions on archaeology can be safely discounted.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2025 7:30 am
by Nessie
pilgrimofdark wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:31 pm
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 7:38 amYou ignore that you cannot name a single witness who you believe.
You took upon yourself the burden to provide support for this sentence.

You did not provide a full list of every single witness with every statement they made. Nor have you provided support for whether I have ignored each witness and statement. Nor is there any support for your knowledge of my belief of the witness and individual statement.

That is the minimum you need to provide.

A list of every single witness and every statement they made is required to establish the baseline for any debate about my belief of any "single witness."
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm My claim is in relation to the witnesses who worked at TII. List of witnesses to TII here;

https://codohforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=372
The list provided doesn't include even all the witnesses from the 1944 Soviet investigation, or the 1945 Polish investigation.

Ukrainians
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 2) Nikolay Shalayev ( guard and motorist) 1. protokol doprosa -
18.12.50 (federenko trial?)

5) Nikolai Malagon 1. interrogation -
18.03.78 russia
(for demjanuk trial ?)
Why are there questions marks on these? "Federenko trial?" "For Demjanuk trial?"

Did you add those question marks yourself? For what purpose?

You're not sure whether the statement exists or what it was given for?

Jankiel Wiernik
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 1) Jankiel Wiernik - 8/42-8/43 revolt Polish Commission 1946
Eichmann Trial - 1961
This doesn't include Wiernik's October 12, 1945 statement in Łódź to Judge Łukaszkiewicz, nor his Fischer trial testimony from 1947.

Abram Goldfarb
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm Abraham Goldfarb - 8/42 - 8/43 revolt Protokol doprosa - 21.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P31
Are you claiming Goldfarb's statement is only on Page 31 of that GARF archival document? It's not. It's on pages 28-37.

Where did you get that archival citation from? Did you read a transcription of it? Did you notice it's too long to fit on a single page?

This isn't even every statement Goldfarb gave in 1944 to the Soviets within a 5-day period.

Goldfarb gave an additional interrogation on the very next page of the document you cited a single page of as his entire "Protokol doprosa."
GARF 7445-2-134 p. 38.

Samuel Rajzman
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 8) Samuel Rajzman - 9/42-8/43 Polish Commission 1946
note - mainly hearsay nuremberg - 1946
Yad Vashem Testimony
Federenko Trial - USA 1978
1964 Dussledorf
report 1944
YVT 03/547
"report 1944." Are you not sure if it's a "protokol doprosa" or not? How do you expect people to check this source?

Is this entire list your original work? Are you taking responsibility for this reference style?

Rajzman/Reizman/Reisman was also interrogated by the Soviets, which has an actual reference in an actual archive, and a transcription is available online.
GARF P-7021-115-11 pp. 77-89.

Alexander Kudlik

Kudlik isn't on this list at all, but he was on the list of "map witnesses" for the mass graves from that 2006 webpage you posted elsewhere. I'd suggest you "ignore" him because you don't "believe" him, but that would be uncharitable and I have no idea if that would be an accurate statement or simply a reckless assumption.

Kudlik has an interrogation protocol with the Soviets in 1944.

The protocol of the interrogation of Alexander Kudlik on the deportation of citizens of the United States and Great Britain to Treblinka
GARF P-7021-115-10 p. 7–9.

Mendel Korytnicki
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:30 pm 12) Mendel Korytnicki - ?? Protokol doprosa - 23.09.44
GARF 7445-2-134 P56r
More question marks in a citation. What questions do you have about this? What did you do to answer your own questions?

What does "P56r" mean to you? Page 56 and the following page? What happened to the other pages?

What is specifically on "P56r" you suggest we look at?

His entire interrogation protocols are on pages 52-61.
GARF 7445-2-134 pp. 52-61.

---

Are these people you don't respect enough to read their entire interrogation protocols? Why cite them at me if you don't care to read or cite them properly yourself?

These citations are so incorrect that it's debatable whether the entire posts should be deleted as they could mislead readers.

I'm not going to check more of this. You took upon yourself the burden of supporting your statement, so this research work is yours and I look forward to the full results.

Once you compile the full list, I will check it again for completeness and accuracy.

If it is deemed a complete list, then you can start going through each and every single statement each witness makes and provide the following:
  1. Each statement from each witness, in a list that is structured and rational
  2. A cited source indicating my awareness of that source
  3. A cited source where I deliberately ignored that specific source
  4. A cited source where I stated my explicit disbelief in that specific statement
At that point, I will confirm whether you are correct or not. This will constitute the debatable portion of your statement.

Until then, your burden is to provide the support as requested.

Or you can simply retract and admit you're in no position to make factual statements about what other posters "ignore" or "believe," and it is uncharitable to presume to do so.
I base my claim of 100% of the eyewitnesses who worked at TII are regarded as liars on;

- repeated, sweeping, so-called revisionist claims about lying witnesses
- the failure by any so-called revisionist to name an eyewitness they say is telling the truth
- the claim by so-called revisionists that TII did not mass gas people, or have mass graves for hundreds of thousands.

You are part of that group, unless you admit TII was a death camp and you can name eyewitnesses who you believe.

Re: What Actually DID Happen at Treblinka?

Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2025 7:41 am
by Nessie
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:19 pm
Nessie wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:54 am
Callafangers wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 8:55 am The funny thing is, Nessie, that all of those things [delousing, border measures, property sorting, etc.] are compatible with one another and evidenced.
Yet, you fail to evidence any of those processes actually taking place.
EVIDENCED Typhus:
For months, English and American newspapers have been reporting on a new weapon the Soviets supposedly possess to defeat the Germans this winter: typhus. They believe they have found a new "general" who could save them—General Typhus.
[...]
In Germany, all necessary countermeasures were taken in time to prevent this danger. The German border was secured by a network of delousing facilities that acted like a demarcation line. Dr. Conti adds that the threat of typhus has been averted.
[...]
In the incorporated eastern territories, there were 43 cases among Germans and 338 among Jews. In recent weeks, this number has been further reduced. In the metropolis of Berlin, there were only four cases in the entire month of February. It is a clear reality; there is practically no longer any risk of typhus. By eliminating this threat from the East, Germany is once again fulfilling a European responsibility.
"There is no danger of typhus", translated from German. Oesterreichische Volks-Zeitung, März 1942, 1942-03-28, p. 3

EVIDENCED: Border measures (Gedob, Lublin/Work Area, Soviet demarcation line):
Spoiler
Image

Polish state archives Reference code: 29/663/0/7/1288
Link
EVIDENCED Property Sorting:

'A New Revisionist Interpretation of Operation Reinhardt'
viewtopic.php?t=26
You're here struggling to find a grave amounting to 1% of what you claim, whereas revisionists have mapped out the facts:
  • Junk property is buried at Treblinka, not Jews (for the most part) -- documented, verified
In fact, a lot of the buried property is of Jewish origins.
No shit it's of Jewish origins. It's probably at least 95% Jewish or more. This is my point, not yours.
[*] Where Jews are buried, we find amounts to that of typhus victims at most -- quantified (or estimated), documented
But, when I ask a so-called revisionist to be precise and say how much of the ground is disturbed and how many corpses were buried, they cannot say.
'Disturbed' means nothing at all. It doesn't mean corpses, especially because it's proven 100% (per Judge Lukasciewicz and his team) that other diggings were rampant.
[*] Setting up border stations to combat typhus is documented, as I've shown in the reference linked in my last post
But, you cannot evidence TII was one of those camps.
How many other camps have you evidenced for this purpose? Zero? Guess you're admitting it's the AR camps by default, then.
[*] Your witnesses tell lots of lies -- very well documented
Wrong. Your way of assessing witness evidence is deeply flawed and results in the extraordinary claim that 100% of them successfully lied about mass killings at the camp, without anyone making a mistake, and blowing the hoax, by revealling what did take place.
Your list of ALL witnesses at Treblinka per pilgrimofdark's recent request yielded some ~35 total persons, many of them proven liars, such as Abraham Bomba who says he was giving barbershop-style haircuts to Jews before they went into the 'gas chamber' because, you know, reasons...
[*] Border stations explain seeing camps like Treblinka, Sobibor as an apparent "last stop" -- as documented
You cannot evidence TII as a border station, with mass transports of people arriving and then leaving.
It's literally on the border (Soviet border, Gedob border, district border). It doesn't get much clearer:
Spoiler
Image

Polish state archives Reference code: 29/663/0/7/1288
Link
[*] You can't explain the firewood conundrum (not even with loads of gasoline - sorry bombsaway) -- documented (or a lack thereof)
Wood was gathered locally, or delivered from wood yards and not as much was needed for the pyres, as you think.
Sorry, this doesn't explain (let alone evidence) the largest mass burning event the world has ever seen 100x over -- not by a long shot. You're about 400,000,000 kg short in terms of evidence for wood, even if assuming they doused it with gasoline regularly. You also need to explain where the ashes went, since nobody digging at Treblinka has found them.
[*] The pattern of staff experience was not murder but economic tasks, registration office work, medical/nursing, sanitation, transportation, and cooking -- documented[/list]
They all came from T4, a euthanasia programme, killing the disabled in hospitals set up as euthanasia centres.
They didn't "all" come from T4; about 70-75% came from an institution or facility that had euthanasia operations taking place, but most had worked in registration, economics, and other general institutional tasks. If T4 hadn't closed at the time it did, staffing for AR camps would have come from elsewhere.
Need I go on? You've already lost, Nessie. It's just a matter of time before you realize it.
Historians can provide an evidenced chronology of events inside TII, from the date it opened to when it closed. They can provide dates of transports, when the gas chambers were replaced, when cremations started and when the rebellion broke out.

You cannot do that basic task.
"Historians" can posture themselves as genuine truth-seekers while simultaneously breaking all rules of logic, or not understanding what logic is to begin with, based on the cult-like manifestation that the field of historiography has recently (20th century and since) become. The tradition of writing history itself has been subverted by the same people subverting the written history. No reasonable person would nor should ever put 'the witnesses' ahead of the measurable, verifiable facts.
You produce a series of alternate hypothesis and declare job done. You are wrong. You need to produce a chronologically evidence history of the camp;

- evidence pertaining to its origins, why it was set up, the department responsible, what documents and witnesses said
- when it opened, how long it ran for and when it closed
- when it took prisoners, how many it took, where they came from and what those prisoners said happened to them
- evidence about the staff and what they said about their work at the camp
- evidence of when it took prisoners with typhus, what happened to them and how many there were
- evidence of the border measures in operation and how they developed during the time the camp was open. Evidence an operational border in 1942-3, where the camp was, that also affected others, such as local Poles. Evidence the people who arrived at the camp, leaving and where they went to.

There is evidence of property theft and sorting, but you use eyewitnesses such as Bomba, you claim is a liar and you cannot evidence what happened to the people after everything including their hair, had been stolen from them.

You talk about the tradition of writing history, but you fail to write the history of the camp.